Re: -Events-

[Alexander Schmehl]

* Martin Michlmayr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030717 10:28]:

> I agree; black polo shirts with a Debian swirl would be nice, and
> Debian has the funds to have those made if anyone wants to organize
> this.

www.openstuff.net allready sell black polo shirts with swirl. They even
had a booth at linuxtag and afaik in Metz, too, and many guys bought
allready one or two.

Perhaps we could ask them for a special price?


Sincerely
  Alexander

Re: -Events-

[Andreas Tille]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Michael Meskes wrote:

> Because visitors should be able to identify booth people even if they
> are a few meters away. Also a badge is only seeable if the booth people
> are showing you their front site. What if you see them from behind?
They would immediately went to the professional CreDativ booth very close
to the Debian booth. ;-)

SCNR

  Andreas.

PS: On the other hand I would support kind of uniform T-Shirts but you might
remember that one T-Shirt per person would not do the job for a four days
event (I just stick to the 24 hours per day calculation because it is more
comfortable than 160 hour day ...)

Re: -Events-

[Andreas Tille]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Martin Schulze wrote:

> I'd use white shirts since lighter material is more friendly while
> dark material is dark and represents sadness.  Also, logos on light
> shirts are easier distinguishable than logos on dark shirts, except
> you use large plain spaces with light colors - but the Debian logo
> is too filigrane for it.
Nothing against your personal feelings about black but I've got the
feeling that LinuxTag was becoming "darker" compared to last year because
much more tie wearing people entered.  I personally bought a black shirt
and a black polo shirt at LinuxTag with the Debian Swirl.  It is clearly
visible and I prefer it because it looks more serious (quite apropriate
for me because I'm sort of increasing the average age at the Debian
booth ... ;-) ).

Kind regards

   Andreas.

Re: -Events-

[Andreas Tille]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Michael Banck wrote:

> If the shirts have a breast pocket, the badges with clips could be
> easily attached (like the ones from LinuxTag)
>
> At least I don't like badges with needles a lot.
Same for me

Andreas.

Re: -Events-

[Andreas Tille]

On 17 Jul 2003, David N. Welton wrote:

> Good point, but white shirts get dirty easily.  How about a light
> gray?
Do we make compromisses?? I think no and black is OK. ;)

Kind regards

  Andreas.

Re: Debian events material from Linuxtag

[Andreas Tille]

On 15 Jul 2003, [ISO-8859-1] Noèl Köthe wrote:

> one package of flyer (650 pieces) and some sticker took Fabbione for the
> Debconf/-camp to distribute it there to DD for coming events.
> Alexander Schmehl took the posters for the Linux World Expo 2003 in
> Frankfurt, Germany.
>
> We have left over one package of flyers and some stickers for PC cases
> which can be ordered by Michael Meskes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) like described on
> http://www.de.debian.org/events/material
> Also we still have 6 packages (>700 CDs) of Linuxtag 2003 CDs which are
> right now at Michael Meskes but Grisu want to take them all distributing
> them for coming events so if you need some ask him ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
Hope we meet each other at

   http://www.linuxday.lu/

If not you might send me some stuff I could cary with me to Luxembourg.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

beeing at Debconf in Oslo I just want to foreward some kind of critics
to LinuxTag:  Several people regard this event as really useless for people
who do not understand German.

Any remarks?

 Andreas.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Anders Dybdal]

Hi,
Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
supposed to be in german?!?

/Anders
Andreas Tille wrote:
Hi,
beeing at Debconf in Oslo I just want to foreward some kind of critics
to LinuxTag:  Several people regard this event as really useless for people
who do not understand German.
Any remarks?
Andreas.
 

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Michael Banck]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:12:32PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
> Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
> supposed to be in german?!?

Yeah, DebConf is in Oslo, so all the talks should be in norwegian, if
you ask me.


Michael

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Christoph Siess]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:12:32PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
> supposed to be in german?!?

I fully agree. Since 90% of the people at LinuxTag speak german it makes
sense to give the talks in german. This is what the people in Karlsruhe
expect there. If we would talk english there maybe 80% would understand
the talk (you can't assume that everybody who knows german knows
english).

Christoph

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Christoph Siess]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:17:50PM +0200, Michael Banck wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:12:32PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
> > Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
> > supposed to be in german?!?
> 
> Yeah, DebConf is in Oslo, so all the talks should be in norwegian, if
> you ask me.

That's not the point. DebConf is a internation event, LinuxTag not

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Anders Dybdal]

Michael Banck wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:12:32PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
 

Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
supposed to be in german?!?
   

Yeah, DebConf is in Oslo, so all the talks should be in norwegian, if
you ask me.
Michael
Now that was stupid.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Michael Banck]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:30:30PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
> Now that was stupid.

At least I quoted allright :P

Seriously, I believe ideally, the slides should be prepared in english
and the talk either in german or english, depending on the audience (ask
them first). If you really want to talk in german, make that clear by
using a german title.

Then again, I was surprised even Georg Greve held his talk in german.


Michael

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Fabio Massimo Di Nitto]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Michael Banck wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:30:30PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
> > Now that was stupid.
>
> At least I quoted allright :P
>
> Seriously, I believe ideally, the slides should be prepared in english
> and the talk either in german or english, depending on the audience (ask
> them first). If you really want to talk in german, make that clear by
> using a german title.

What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is
something that doesn't really work here. What is my understanding a
European exhibition should be able to give out to every european citizen
and not only to local ones.

Fabio

-- 
Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
"We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues

http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Michael Banck]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:41:00PM +0200, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:
> What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
> as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is
> something that doesn't really work here. What is my understanding a
> European exhibition should be able to give out to every european citizen
> and not only to local ones.

Yeah, and then the germans bitch about LSM being in french :P


Michael

Re: -Events-

[Martin Schulze]

Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Martin Schulze wrote:
> 
> > I'd use white shirts since lighter material is more friendly while
> > dark material is dark and represents sadness.  Also, logos on light
> > shirts are easier distinguishable than logos on dark shirts, except
> > you use large plain spaces with light colors - but the Debian logo
> > is too filigrane for it.
> Nothing against your personal feelings about black but I've got the
> feeling that LinuxTag was becoming "darker" compared to last year because
> much more tie wearing people entered.  I personally bought a black shirt

That's a very fortunate development.  LinuxTag won't be able without
business.  As much as LinuxTag won't be able without community.  Both
are essential and vital to LinuxTag.  Hence, I can only hope that
business recognition will grow even more - which would mean that we
can spend more money on the community to improve their appearence and
features.  (so much from one core LinuxTag team member)

> and a black polo shirt at LinuxTag with the Debian Swirl.  It is clearly
> visible and I prefer it because it looks more serious (quite apropriate
> for me because I'm sort of increasing the average age at the Debian
> booth ... ;-) ).

No problem, and no need for me to comment on it again, since both are
personal opinions and people are free to ignore at least what I'm
saying on this issue.   (just so people don't get me wrong).  I'm
happy with anything that improves Debian.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: -Events-

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Rico -mc- Gloeckner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-07-17 20:24]:
> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i

 You are using mutt, so I guess you have on purpose not set a
Mail-Followup-To header to get Cc:'s from listmails.  If this is an
accident, consider using the "subscribe" entry in your ~/.muttrc :)

> On the other Hand, those Sites usually have feed-in adresses which are
> there for news they dont know about, i.e. which also are there for
> press-releases (ofcourse the context has to be there, it doesnt make
> sense to mail some diet-news-site about debian).

 Feel free to forward the debian-news mails to their feed. I guess they
will tell you if they are subscribed themself already and know about it
or if they are glad that you've done it.

> Well iam neither Debian Developer, nor experienced in organizing Events.

 Please check out the links at  for a
start, they might help you there.  If something is unclear for you feel
free to ask on this list -- after all that is what the list is for.

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
use Mail::Signature;
$sig = Mail::Signature->new;
print $sig->random;


pgpECMtKX9FrP.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: -Events-

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* "Andrew M.A. Cater" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-07-17 19:42]:
> It might not be a bad idea to use the ready made shirts from
> www.openstuff.be - I wore a formal white shirt with a Debian
> swirl to man the front of the booth to meet the suits^H^H^H^H
> customers at the Linux Expo in Birmingham.

 I guess you mean openstuff.de, I was not able to find openstuff.be. But
on openstuff.de I wasn't even able to find a single shirt, can you
please be a little bit more verbose?

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
use Mail::Signature;
$sig = Mail::Signature->new;
print $sig->random;


pgp7SCRAHSKxR.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian events material from Linuxtag

[Alexander Schmehl]

* Andreas Tille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030718 12:48]:

> Hope we meet each other at
>http://www.linuxday.lu/
> If not you might send me some stuff I could cary with me to Luxembourg.

If can't get there (ask me again in a couple of weeks), contact me, so
I can send you some/all of the Debian posters I have.


Yours sincerely
  Alexander

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Anders Dybdal]

Martin Schulze wrote:
It started as German exhibition and conference but became a European
event.  Hence, some talks are already held in English, some exhibitors
come from oversees and speak English (some speak German as well, though).
Regards,
Joey
Good answer. Its still a German Linux Day, hence a LOT of german speaks 
should be ok.

/Anders

Re: Will there be a Debian Booth at the LinuxWorld Expo?

[Alexander Schmehl]

* Alexander Wirt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030717 13:23]:

> in octobre is the Linux World Expo in Frankfurt
> (http://www.linuxworldexpo.de). Will there be debianbooth or
> something like that?

http://www.debian.org/events/2003/1027-lwe


Yours sincerely
  Alexander

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Fabio Massimo Di Nitto]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:

> * Fabio Massimo Di Nitto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-07-18 13:41]:
> > What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
> > as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is
> > something that doesn't really work here.
>
>  Why not?  You think there are more people in europe that speak english
> than those who speak german?

Yes.

> > What is my understanding a European exhibition should be able to give
> > out to every european citizen and not only to local ones.
>
>  And english wouldn't be able to reach every european citizen neither.

But for sure a larger amount.

Fabio

-- 
Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
"We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues

http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Sven Luther]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:12:32PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
> supposed to be in german?!?

Well, it gets advertized as the biggest Linux conference in europe, so i
guess there will also be non german attending. Not that i had personally
a problem with it, as i also speak german.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Andreas Tille wrote:
> beeing at Debconf in Oslo I just want to foreward some kind of critics
> to LinuxTag:  Several people regard this event as really useless for people
> who do not understand German.

Several talks were already delivered in English.  Even if the talk
was held in German, most speakers could be questioned afterwards
in English.

If the event was useless for people from the community of Debian,
then the Debian booth and Debian people did a very poor job.  I
hope that's only a misinterpretation.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Michael Banck wrote:
> > Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
> > supposed to be in german?!?
> 
> Yeah, DebConf is in Oslo, so all the talks should be in norwegian, if
> you ask me.

Heh...

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Anders Dybdal wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
> supposed to be in german?!?

It started as German exhibition and conference but became a European
event.  Hence, some talks are already held in English, some exhibitors
come from oversees and speak English (some speak German as well, though).

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Fabio Massimo Di Nitto]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Michael Banck wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:41:00PM +0200, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:
> > What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
> > as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is
> > something that doesn't really work here. What is my understanding a
> > European exhibition should be able to give out to every european citizen
> > and not only to local ones.
>
> Yeah, and then the germans bitch about LSM being in french :P
>

ehhehehe but note that I am not complaining about them speaking german. it
is in their right 10%. If it is an exhibitions with a "closed"
target than they should just advertise it in that way.

Fabio

-- 
Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
"We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues

http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[David N. Welton]

Christoph Siess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> That's not the point. DebConf is a internation event, LinuxTag
> not

Exactly.  The European Linux comunity should find itself an
international event as its "big event".

-- 
David N. Welton
   Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
 Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
   Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Peter Makholm]

Andreas Tille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> beeing at Debconf in Oslo I just want to foreward some kind of critics
> to LinuxTag:  Several people regard this event as really useless for people
> who do not understand German.

If LinuxTag wants to be viewed as an international event I guess it
bad if a major part of the talks isn't in english. I thought about
going a year ago but I'm not good at german so I didn't go.

But I have no proble with LibuxTag being a nation german event and
then I would expect that the majority of the talks were in
german. Foreign talkes can of course give their talks in english.

-- 
 Peter Makholm |  What if:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | IBM bought Xenix from Microsoft instead of buying
 http://hacking.dk |  DOS?

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Fabio Massimo Di Nitto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-07-18 13:41]:
> What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
> as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is
> something that doesn't really work here.

 Why not?  You think there are more people in europe that speak english
than those who speak german?  I wouldn't be too confident on that part,
I would rather assume that it is more or less the same amount.

> What is my understanding a European exhibition should be able to give
> out to every european citizen and not only to local ones.

 And english wouldn't be able to reach every european citizen neither.
What was your point again?

 So long,
Alf*it's not possible to please everyone*ie
-- 
use Mail::Signature;
$sig = Mail::Signature->new;
print $sig->random;


pgpkD1RFHp33Q.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: -Events-

[Alexander Schmehl]

* Rico -mc- Gloeckner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030717 20:24]:

> > Please go ahead.  We had some presence there two years ago already.
> Well iam neither Debian Developer,

Nor am I.


> nor experienced in organizing Events.

That excuse doesn't count. I tried it a year ago, too, but they catched
me ;)


> I would be glad to help people out, but someone else has to take the
> task of organizing.

It is quite easy: Read the stuff at www.debian.org/events/ , do your
best, and if someone complains about your lousy organization, tell him
to do better ;)

A bad representation is better than none at all. And especialy at the
CCC a amateurish appearance might became a benefit.


Yours sincerely,
  Alexander
  
PS: BTW: Someone from the CCC asked me at LinuxTag if we would like to
represent ourself at the camp ;)

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Peter Makholm]

Fabio Massimo Di Nitto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
> as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is

Well, german is european the same way that linux is unix.

-- 
 Peter Makholm |  I laugh in the face of danger. Then I hide until
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  it goes away
 http://hacking.dk | -- Xander

Re: -Events-

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Gerfried Fuchs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-07-18 12:14]:
> > www.openstuff.be - I wore a formal white shirt with a Debian
> 
>  I guess you mean openstuff.de, I was not able to find openstuff.be. But
> on openstuff.de I wasn't even able to find a single shirt, can you
> please be a little bit more verbose?

http://www.openstuff.net/

-- 
Martin Michlmayr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: -Events-

[Joerg Wendland]

Martin Schulze, on 2003-07-17, 14:31, you wrote:
> Speaking of professionalism, a white or grey shirt with the swirl
> embroided would be proper.  Real shirts also have a breast pocket.

Then I would opt for white ones because grey is kind of uncomfortable in
terms of people being able to see you sweating :-)

Joerg

-- 
Joerg "joergland" Wendland
GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A  F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417


pgppRdwHFGsro.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Michael Banck]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:15:47PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Several talks were already delivered in English.  Even if the talk
> was held in German, most speakers could be questioned afterwards
> in English.

As this is -events-eu, I take it you talk about the debian-day? I know
you organize LT, but nevertheless I think it would be wise to keep the
scope down to what's on-topic for this list. Martin did his talk in
english, as might have Jörg, I'm not sure. I'm just asking for a general
policy for next year so people can adopt to it.

I already proposed: 'English slides, talk either in german or english,
by request of the audience'


Michael

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Fabio Massimo Di Nitto]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Karsten Merker wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:41:00PM +0200, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:
>
> > What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
> > as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is
> > something that doesn't really work here. What is my understanding a
> > European exhibition should be able to give out to every european citizen
> > and not only to local ones.
>
> In the _exhibition_ it is not that much of a problem - the largest part of
> the booth personnel spoke both English and German, at some booths there were
> also people who could speak a bit French, Italian, Dutch or Spanish, and you
> can adapt your language choice to the particular visitor you are talking to
> at your booth. This is plainly not possible when giving a talk to several
> hundred people - you have to choose one language there.

I meant exhibition in its globality (including talks).

> One could argue that the number of talks given in English should be higher
> than it currently is (about 1/3 of all talks)

and that's it :-)

Fabio

-- 
Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol
"We are on a mission from God" - Elwood Blues

http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Alexander Schmehl]

* Martin Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030718 13:15]:

> If the event was useless for people from the community of Debian,
> then the Debian booth and Debian people did a very poor job.  I
> hope that's only a misinterpretation.

I'm pretty sure you do, since I know quite a few visitors, who asked us
questions in foreign languages, and got anserwed in them too, IIRc not
only english, but in french, too.

Of course I ask visitors at our booth in german "may I help you", since
most visitors are german.

In my opinion you should not blame LinuxTag organization, and I'm sure
you can't criticize the volunteers of the DebianDay/PhpDay or what else
was part of the workshop programm.
If you miss a talk in your language, you are free to to one.

Yours sincerely
  Alexander


PS: Yes, I know that I suggested my talk in german or bugy english and
later forgot to ask the auditors. But nobody complained about that in
my presence.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Fabio Massimo Di Nitto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-07-18 14:13]:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
>>  Why not?  You think there are more people in europe that speak english
>> than those who speak german?
> 
> Yes.

 Significant more?  Especially in the group of people for which the
LinuxTag is aiming at?  I doubt it, definitely.  And like others pointed
out, about 1/3rd of the talks were already held in english.  I wouldn't
call that too unattractive (though that is of course depending on which
talks that were or what the people are interested in).

>>  And english wouldn't be able to reach every european citizen neither.
> 
> But for sure a larger amount.

 Not in that context, not for that (intent) audience, I guess.

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
use Mail::Signature;
$sig = Mail::Signature->new;
print $sig->random;


pgpTwd7SgkFZJ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Alexander Schmehl]

* Michael Banck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [030718 14:47]:

> I already proposed: 'English slides, talk either in german or english,
> by request of the audience'

Sounds good for me, as long as no one complains after that about the
bad english, the speaker used.


Yours sincerely
  Alexander

Re: -Events-

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Martin Schulze wrote:

> That's a very fortunate development.  LinuxTag won't be able without
> business.  As much as LinuxTag won't be able without community.  Both
> are essential and vital to LinuxTag.  Hence, I can only hope that
> business recognition will grow even more - which would mean that we
> can spend more money on the community to improve their appearence and
> features.  (so much from one core LinuxTag team member)
Fully ACK (from a happy partipicant / visitors view).

> No problem, and no need for me to comment on it again, since both are
> personal opinions and people are free to ignore at least what I'm
> saying on this issue.   (just so people don't get me wrong).  I'm
> happy with anything that improves Debian.
Same for me for sure

 Andreas.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:17:40PM +0200, Christoph Siess wrote:
> That's not the point. DebConf is a internation event, LinuxTag not

You're right, but it's a shame that german people of LinuxTag didn't catch
in time the echo that such an event was having (has) in Europe. Don't be
disappointed: many talks at Libre Software Meeting in Bordeaux (while
debconf1) where in french. That was a shame too.

ciao,
-- 
Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis  | Elegant or ugly code as well
aliases: Luca ^De [A-Z][A-Za-z\-]*[iy]'\?s$ | as fine or rude sentences have
Luca, a wannabe ``Good guy''.   | something in common: they
local LANG="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" | don't depend on the 
language.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Russell Coker]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:54, Andreas Tille wrote:
> beeing at Debconf in Oslo I just want to foreward some kind of critics
> to LinuxTag:  Several people regard this event as really useless for people
> who do not understand German.

The one I went to was quite good.  Most of the talks were in German but there 
were enough interesting things in English to keep me occupied.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Russell Coker]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:41, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:
> What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
> as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is

Good point.  The official EU languages are English, French, and German.  
Therefore they should try and increase the use of French at LinuxTag to make 
it more European!  ;)

But seriously they should probably encourage speakers to give talks twice in 
English and German if possible, and if someone wants to give their talk three 
or four times in different languages they should be able to accomodate that 
too.

The LinuxTag venue last year had many smaller rooms, a talk that gets 300 
delegates in English or German may only get 30 in French, Dutch, or Italian 
and fit into one of the smallest rooms.

There is another conference I've been to where every talk is repeated three 
times to give everyone an opportunity to see all talks that interest them.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Joerg Wendland]

Luca - De Whiskey's - De Vitis, on 2003-07-18, 10:40, you wrote:
> You're right, but it's a shame that german people of LinuxTag didn't catch
> in time the echo that such an event was having (has) in Europe. Don't be
> disappointed: many talks at Libre Software Meeting in Bordeaux (while
> debconf1) where in french. That was a shame too.

I would not call it a shame. For me a talk is not just about bringing
technical facts to some kind of audience. I as the speaker am
responsible for attracting the audience's interest. I would feel ashamed 
and disappointed if _my_ audience sat in the room and was not interested or
making fun of me just because of my bad German/French. I am used to talk
to people so my personal gauge for delivering such a talk is rather
high. That is why I am not very happy with talking in english.

Joerg

-- 
Joerg "joergland" Wendland
GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A  F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Martin Schulze wrote:

> Several talks were already delivered in English.  Even if the talk
> was held in German, most speakers could be questioned afterwards
> in English.
Well, I hope I made it clear that it was not my personal opinion
(I just nor realized) but I was forewarding the reason I heared why
some people here in Oslo did not even thought about coming to Karlsruhe.
I've thought this would be of greater interest.  Asking questions
after a talk which I did not understand a word does not make any sense.

> If the event was useless for people from the community of Debian,
> then the Debian booth and Debian people did a very poor job.  I
> hope that's only a misinterpretation.
It was absolutely no critics about the Debian booth - just the talks.

Kind regards

   Andreas.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Christoph Siess wrote:

> That's not the point. DebConf is a internation event, LinuxTag not
While I have seen this the same like you before (and thus I not realized
the problem before I talked to those people) I think the news about beeing
the greatest Linux Event on earth should let us think about it ...

Please consider als these things as plain hints.

Kind regards

  Andreas.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Andreas Tille]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Michael Banck wrote:

> Yeah, and then the germans bitch about LSM being in french :P
This was exactly why I feeling und thus I was among the people who
criticized the LSM people I did not want to stop "at or own event".

Kind regards

  Andreas.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Andreas Tille]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Russell Coker wrote:

> The one I went to was quite good.  Most of the talks were in German but there
> were enough interesting things in English to keep me occupied.
So perhaps those people who complained might be proven wrong.  I just wanted
to rise this problem and the thread shows that there is some stuff to discuss.

I remember last year I swithced to English just because you entered the
talk.  Same way this year for the Knoppix workshop:  There was at least
one Italian guy entering and so we swithced to English.  For my official
talk the audience was obviousely a non technical and English would be the
wrong language here.  But I gave a link to English slides and completely
written talk.

Kind regards

   Andreas.

PS: This is no "I'm one of the good boys" posting but a "I do care about
language problems and thats why I'm asking" posting.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Andreas Tille]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Russell Coker wrote:

> There is another conference I've been to where every talk is repeated three
> times to give everyone an opportunity to see all talks that interest them.
I'm not sure if this works and I'm also not sure if it would work if
there would be some "in time translation" - probably we need some
financial model to cope with this but this would be a real step to an
international conference.

Kind regards

 Andreas.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Russell Coker]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 03:04, Andreas Tille wrote:
> > There is another conference I've been to where every talk is repeated
> > three times to give everyone an opportunity to see all talks that
> > interest them.
>
> I'm not sure if this works and I'm also not sure if it would work if

It works for the Colorado Software Summit to have each talk repeated three 
times in English, why wouldn't it work to have a LinuxTag talk three times, 
once in English, once in French, and once in German if the speaker is fluent 
in all the languages?

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Andreas Tille]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Russell Coker wrote:

> It works for the Colorado Software Summit to have each talk repeated three
> times in English, why wouldn't it work to have a LinuxTag talk three times,
> once in English, once in French, and once in German if the speaker is fluent
> in all the languages?
Because the conference would last two times longer or would need twice
as much rooms (taking into account that most speaker only know two
languages).

I would prefer simultaneous translation which would be about same regarding
costs but the more elegant solution, IMHO.

Kind regards

   Andreas.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Josef Spillner]

On Friday 18 July 2003 19:49, Andreas Tille wrote:
> I would prefer simultaneous translation which would be about same regarding
> costs but the more elegant solution, IMHO.

Actually, with the help of WLAN previously translated slides could be 
remote-controlled by the speaker on the attendees' laptops.

This sounds stupid but I'm sure a friendly company has patented it already...

Josef

-- 
Play for fun, win for freedom.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:15:47PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Andreas Tille wrote:
> > beeing at Debconf in Oslo I just want to foreward some kind of critics
> > to LinuxTag:  Several people regard this event as really useless for people
> > who do not understand German.
>  
> If the event was useless for people from the community of Debian,
> then the Debian booth and Debian people did a very poor job.  I
> hope that's only a misinterpretation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   Joey
> 
This is a valid point.  We expect that everyone on the Debian lists
probably has some ability in English.  To what extent should we expect
that we should be able to field a multilingual team for a big expo.

I feel fairly confident that I can understand French well, read it 
fluently and translate it but I can only speak it moderately.  The
same goes for Spanish. [At school I learned these languages to
the rough equivalent level to the baccalaureat / German Arbeitur]
I can hack my way through Italian and Portuguese text but its hard.
I have never formally learned German or Dutch.

The project compromise is that everyone speaks English on the lists.
If we are running a Debian conference with pre-prepared talks and
papers, would it be possible to translate to say - English, French,
German for each paper?  Several conferences put out a CD of conference
proceedings - given papers / the text of talks well in advance, we might
do this.

I was involved in a small EU project involving small charities where, 
through lack of money, each organisation had to translate their own 
stuff into English.  I spent the best part of a year fielding emails in 
Spanish and doing simultaneous translations to keep our Spanish partners 
on track with what we were doing.  Much to my chagrin, the English group 
didn't translate their stuff to Dutch/Swedish/Finnish/Spanish :(

Just my 0.02 Euro

Andy

Re: -Events-

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 12:14:50PM +0200, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
> * "Andrew M.A. Cater" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2003-07-17 19:42]:
> > It might not be a bad idea to use the ready made shirts from
> > www.openstuff.be - I wore a formal white shirt with a Debian
> > swirl to man the front of the booth to meet the suits^H^H^H^H
> > customers at the Linux Expo in Birmingham.
> 
>  I guess you mean openstuff.de, I was not able to find openstuff.be. But
> on openstuff.de I wasn't even able to find a single shirt, can you
> please be a little bit more verbose?
> 
Sorry - it is a .be site which hangs off www.tiny.be

www.openstuff.net

Andy

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Christoph Siess wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:17:50PM +0200, Michael Banck wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:12:32PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
> > > Is it me or is LinuxTag a GERMAN LinuxDay, in Germany?? Hence, isnt it 
> > > supposed to be in german?!?
> > 
> > Yeah, DebConf is in Oslo, so all the talks should be in norwegian, if
> > you ask me.
> 
> That's not the point. DebConf is a internation event, LinuxTag not

Well... we're trying to...  We're also improving.  At least the website
is fully bilingual this year and there are several English-only speakers
and talks in English although the speakers talk German as well.  Check
the conference program on the website, there should be a flag telling
you which talks were helt in english actually.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Michael Banck wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:30:30PM +0200, Anders Dybdal wrote:
> > > Now that was stupid.
> >
> > At least I quoted allright :P
> >
> > Seriously, I believe ideally, the slides should be prepared in english
> > and the talk either in german or english, depending on the audience (ask
> > them first). If you really want to talk in german, make that clear by
> > using a german title.
> 
> What really puzzles me is that on linuxtag.de they qualify the exhibition
> as "EUROPEAN" and they have most of the talks in german. There is
> something that doesn't really work here. What is my understanding a
> European exhibition should be able to give out to every european citizen
> and not only to local ones.

Ok folks, since you are so upset at the many German talks, what about
changing this and do something constructive instead of just lamenting
and abusing bandwidth.  What about you submit a talk in ENGLISH next
January/February when the Call for Papers will be published?

Also, if there should be a Debian Day next year, I expect all talks to
be delivered in english or another widely used non-German language.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote:
> ehhehehe but note that I am not complaining about them speaking german. it
> is in their right 10%. If it is an exhibitions with a "closed"
> target than they should just advertise it in that way.

Enough booth staff speaks english so the exhibition is fully
international.  If you are unable to talk to the booth people, though,
that's a different problem...

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Anders Dybdal wrote:
> >It started as German exhibition and conference but became a European
> >event.  Hence, some talks are already held in English, some exhibitors
> >come from oversees and speak English (some speak German as well, though).
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> > Joey
> >
> Good answer. Its still a German Linux Day, hence a LOT of german speaks 
> should be ok.

Thanks,

Joey, who wonders what this thread is about...

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Alexander Schmehl wrote:
> Of course I ask visitors at our booth in german "may I help you", since
> most visitors are german.

And then they answer "Ugh, could you repeat that in English", then you
do and everything's happy.  No problem as long as people are not too
shy to say a word in a "so called foreign" language.

> PS: Yes, I know that I suggested my talk in german or bugy english and
> later forgot to ask the auditors. But nobody complained about that in
> my presence.

I once developed a talk in English with English slides all over, asked
the audience whether they would likt to have it helt in English or
German, but they opted for German.  Too bad, the slides didn't match
the talk anymore...

That's just to demonstrate that it could be the other way around as well.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Martin Schulze wrote:
> 
> > Several talks were already delivered in English.  Even if the talk
> > was held in German, most speakers could be questioned afterwards
> > in English.
> Well, I hope I made it clear that it was not my personal opinion
> (I just nor realized) but I was forewarding the reason I heared why
> some people here in Oslo did not even thought about coming to Karlsruhe.
> I've thought this would be of greater interest.  Asking questions
> after a talk which I did not understand a word does not make any sense.

I'm unsure that it is the job of LinuxTag Team to teach visitors to
drop by at the speaker and tell him that they did not understand a
word but that the subject was interesting and ask him whether he would
be willing to explain it in English.  I don't think we have to teach
people to open their mouth.  I'm very sorry this seems to be a problem
for some people.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

Re: Language of talks at LinuxTag

[Martin Schulze]

Michael Banck wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:15:47PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > Several talks were already delivered in English.  Even if the talk
> > was held in German, most speakers could be questioned afterwards
> > in English.
> 
> As this is -events-eu, I take it you talk about the debian-day? I know
> you organize LT, but nevertheless I think it would be wise to keep the
> scope down to what's on-topic for this list. Martin did his talk in
> english, as might have Jörg, I'm not sure. I'm just asking for a general
> policy for next year so people can adopt to it.
> 
> I already proposed: 'English slides, talk either in german or english,
> by request of the audience'

Err... well... no...  In the above, I was talking about the main
conference program, one part I'm not involved in, though.  Spaking of
the Debian Day, I don't think there was a single English talk.
However, maybe tbm's 'State of the Nation' was delivered in English.
However, before the event started nobody murned bout only German talks
during Debian Day.  Hence, I wonder quite a bit...

Could you write a short text which could be used as mandatory document
for a talk during Debian Day next year, which I could adopt on the web
pages?

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessarily a good idea.

debian at ccc camp

[Rico -mc- Gloeckner]

Okay, so i got some kick-in-the-ass and am trying to organize it.[1]

So the first thing is - are there any people volunteering for the
debian-"booth" at ccc camp? I think 5-10[2] people should be sufficient 
to run it. Please email me off-list if you are interested.

Secondly, we would need some Place and i think we have the following
Options: 
 - someone organizes a RedCross-like Tent[3] and some tables and chairs.
 - we can get a professional tent with tables and chairs, but that would
   cost something, so unless we find a sponsor this is not a good
   choice.

I put the deadline for getting people and tent together to August 3rd,
so if either not enough people volunteered or there is no way to get a
"decent" place for the booth, i will mail the list that it didnt work
out.

(I however think it makes sense that we first should get people together
and THEN be asking for tents.)


cheers.


[1] As pointed out earlier, i did never do such a thing before, so any
help will be greatly appreciated.

[2] The more the better, we should have an atleast-coverage of people
(2?) at the booth all the time and people will want to leave the booth
for this and that.

[3] I *might* be able to get such a redcross tent, however i will be
dependent on someone else to get there, so i will be there probably
only by Thursday, not by Wednesday :-/

-- 
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