Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Robin,
Sorry that your purchase resulted in a contentious relationship with your 
broker.  First off, was this a buyer or sellers agent?  If you secured them to 
find you a boat and post survey discovered something as serious as a bent prop 
shaft, I would put several issues up for question:
1. Was the boat in the water or on the hard at purchase?
2. Did you accept the results of the survey without a sea trial?
3. If the boat was in the hard, was the engine run at the survey, both in and 
out of gear?

If the boat was accepted for purchase with a "no" answer, the surveyor didn't 
do their job and while most surveys will include numerous disclaimers regarding 
liabilities, you and your broker should have caught this oversight.  Did your 
broker recommend the surveyor?
While this broker truly is not responsible for making the boat free of defects, 
having sufficed knowledge of the boat to be aware of major problems is part of 
their job especially if they are the listing agent.  
At the end of the day, if you accepted and bought a boat that was sold "as is, 
where is" and the boat had no warranty,  it is hard to put blame on the broker. 
 I would make a point of thoroughly reviewing the survey and if there was no 
mention of the prop shaft issue and you didn't require a sea trial, the 
surveyor and broker should have made the purchase price contingent on the boat 
being seaworthy.  If you paid a lower than asking price for the boat, the price 
may have been contingent in the boat needing work.
Often anything discovered at survey can be negotiated out of the asking price 
or you can walk away from the deal.  This assumes that the survey was thorough, 
which does not appear to be the case here.
Like most things in life, you get what you negotiate.  If you agreed to the 
broker and sellers conditions up front and did little to protect your 
investment, then you bear the burden of any shortcomings of the deal.

One exception, if the shaft was damaged in transport by a company hired by the 
broker to move your boat to Montreal, it may be something covered by the 
company that hauled or transported the boat if that is when the damage occurred.
Chuck Gilchrest 
Half Magic
1983 35 Landfall 
Padanaram MA
Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2016, at 10:36 PM, Graham Young via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Wow! I'm dismayed to hear you had such a terrible experience. I just reached 
> a verbal agreement with them on a C & C  pending a survey and I am awaiting 
> the contract.
> 
> So far so good, but this is concerning.
> 
> Graham Young 
> Cleveland, O.
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Robin Drew via CnC-List
>  wrote:
> Bridge Yachts  of Port Dover, ON is a terrible boat brokerage firm. I would 
> never recommend them to anyone, and they should not be in the boat brokerage 
> business after what I just went through. In fact, they should not be in any 
> business.
> 
> 
> I purchased a C&C 33 mark 2 from them earlier this year and everything that 
> you could think of going wrong went wrong. Upon receiving the boat from them 
> last May, I immediately discovered that the boat had a bent propeller shaft. 
> I then had to spend over $2,000 to make the boat seaworthy. 
> 
> 
> Upon communicating with Bridge Yachts who had prepared the boat for 
> transportation, I was told that they were not responsible for the condition 
> of my boat upon delivery. They told me that it was “my problem to fix the 
> bent propeller shaft” and that I “either sue the marine survey who did not 
> detect the problem” or “pursue the boat owner” (whom they were representing) 
> for selling me a damaged vessel.
> 
> 
> They happily took their broker fee for the sale of the boat (a healthy 
> amount, might I add), and they charged me double of what they quoted me 
> verbally for preparation of the boat. 
> 
> 
> I tried to reason with them and get them to drop the preparation charges 
> after giving me such a horrible experience. However, after 5 months of 
> avoiding legal action, they now seem bent on extracting this money from me by 
> legal means yet still maintaining their position of no responsibility for 
> selling me damaged goods. 
> 
> 
> Their lack of accountability is disgraceful and they seem to be completely 
> unreasonable when dealing with their customers.
> 
> Robin Drew,
> Montreal
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish 
> to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Another question:
At what point was the boat owned by you?
If I sold you my boat here and then the shipping firm bent the prop on the way 
to there, I would feel bad about it but suggest the shipping firm be the ones 
to fix it. After all, the boat was fine when it left my slip.
If the shaft was pre-bent, someone dropped the ball somewhere regarding sea 
trials and surveys. I am also VERY wary of brokers in general after looking at 
a Landfall 38 described as being in good shape by the broker. The boat had a 
leaking fuel tank, cracked ports, cracks in the fiberglass around the ports, 
deck leaks, mold, fungus, and in general looked like it was worth the salvage 
value of the lead. The broker admitted he didn’t like climbing so had never 
gone down the hill to the dock and actually looked at the boat!
Joe
Coquina
C&C 35 MK I

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck 
Gilchrest via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 07:03
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Chuck Gilchrest 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

Robin,
Sorry that your purchase resulted in a contentious relationship with your 
broker.  First off, was this a buyer or sellers agent?  If you secured them to 
find you a boat and post survey discovered something as serious as a bent prop 
shaft, I would put several issues up for question:
1. Was the boat in the water or on the hard at purchase?
2. Did you accept the results of the survey without a sea trial?
3. If the boat was in the hard, was the engine run at the survey, both in and 
out of gear?

If the boat was accepted for purchase with a "no" answer, the surveyor didn't 
do their job and while most surveys will include numerous disclaimers regarding 
liabilities, you and your broker should have caught this oversight.  Did your 
broker recommend the surveyor?
While this broker truly is not responsible for making the boat free of defects, 
having sufficed knowledge of the boat to be aware of major problems is part of 
their job especially if they are the listing agent.
At the end of the day, if you accepted and bought a boat that was sold "as is, 
where is" and the boat had no warranty,  it is hard to put blame on the broker. 
 I would make a point of thoroughly reviewing the survey and if there was no 
mention of the prop shaft issue and you didn't require a sea trial, the 
surveyor and broker should have made the purchase price contingent on the boat 
being seaworthy.  If you paid a lower than asking price for the boat, the price 
may have been contingent in the boat needing work.
Often anything discovered at survey can be negotiated out of the asking price 
or you can walk away from the deal.  This assumes that the survey was thorough, 
which does not appear to be the case here.
Like most things in life, you get what you negotiate.  If you agreed to the 
broker and sellers conditions up front and did little to protect your 
investment, then you bear the burden of any shortcomings of the deal.

One exception, if the shaft was damaged in transport by a company hired by the 
broker to move your boat to Montreal, it may be something covered by the 
company that hauled or transported the boat if that is when the damage occurred.
Chuck Gilchrest
Half Magic
1983 35 Landfall
Padanaram MA
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 22, 2016, at 10:36 PM, Graham Young via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Wow! I'm dismayed to hear you had such a terrible experience. I just reached a 
verbal agreement with them on a C & C  pending a survey and I am awaiting the 
contract.

So far so good, but this is concerning.

Graham Young
Cleveland, O.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on 
Android

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Robin Drew via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Bridge Yachts  of Port Dover, ON is a terrible boat brokerage firm. I would 
never recommend them to anyone, and they should not be in the boat brokerage 
business after what I just went through. In fact, they should not be in any 
business.


I purchased a C&C 33 mark 2 from them earlier this year and everything that you 
could think of going wrong went wrong. Upon receiving the boat from them last 
May, I immediately discovered that the boat had a bent propeller shaft. I then 
had to spend over $2,000 to make the boat seaworthy.


Upon communicating with Bridge Yachts who had prepared the boat for 
transportation, I was told that they were not responsible for the condition of 
my boat upon delivery. They told me that it was “my problem to fix the bent 
propeller shaft” and that I “either sue the marine survey who did not detect 
the problem” or “pursue the boat owner” (whom they were representing) for 
selling me a damaged vessel.


They happily took their broker fee for the sale of the boat (a healthy amount, 
might I add), and they charged me double of what they quoted me verbally for 
preparation of the boat.


I tried to reason with them

Re: Stus-List Early C&C Sails (was Re: 1973 custom C&C 43' - hull/deck joint (toe rail replacement?)

[Robert Mazza via CnC-List]

Hi Hank,

Good to hear from you. Yes. you are correct. The Mega was the sole
exception to C&C not working with a designated sailmaker. As you remember,
Peter Barrett of North Sails was one of the driving forces behind the Mega,
so it was always envisioned to be a collaborative effort. I had somehow
blocked that from my memory, but it was definitely "the exception that
proves the rule".

Rob

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:45 PM, henry evans via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi Rob,
>
> Enjoyed your dissertation on sails.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but in our joint venture with North Sails on the
> MEGA , didn't we provide North Sails with the boat ?  Or at least offered
> them ?   Between you as the design project manager and me as the
> sales/marketing project manager, and in spite of our advancing age and
> failing memories, one of us should be able to remember :)
>
> Regarding the other question raised : I think I can shed some light.  One
> of the dealers I handled was Dave Irish at Irish Boat Shop in Harbor
> Springs, MI on Lake Michigan's Grand Traverse Bay.  Dave was very good
> racing sailor and was crew on at least one or two of our Americas Cup 12
> Meter teams. He was also a senior national officer in what now has become
> US Sailing.   Jack Culley at Sailboats, Inc. was having such good success
> selling C&C's that he told Dave he should talk to me.  I flew out, we
> talked and I set him up as a C&C  dealer sometime around 1978 or 79.  He
> sold a number of boats for us on the eastern shore of the lake. Dave had a
> small loft in conjunction with his dealership and boat yards.  He sold them
> under the "Irish Sails" label. I suspect that is what the gentleman is
> referring to.
>
> As you may recall, when I first joined C&C in 1977, you were the one who
> spent several hours explaining to a rookie salesman the basics of NACA
> foils, the details of our unique hull/deck joint and many of the other
> engineering parameters we were using to design and build fast boats. That
> knowledge helped me sell a lot of C&C's over my years with the company.  I
> always enjoy reading your perspectives on design, the industry and C&C
> Yachts.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hank
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 22, 2016 6:10 PM, Robert Mazza via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> C&C did not supply sails as part of the purchase of a new boat. That
> practice started much later and was certainly the case when I was with
> Hunter. Sailmakers competed to supply sails to the individual C&C owners,
> sometimes through the dealers. While with C&C I had the pleasure of sailing
> Bermuda Races with Charlie Ulmer and Dave Lindsey of Ulmer Sails, Block
> Island Race week with John Marshall and Hans Fogh of North Sails, Onion
> Patch with Robby Doyle, and many other events with other talented
> sailmakers from a number of different brands.
>
> A lot of C&Cs were sold on the Lakes, and a lot of those Great Lakes
> sailmakers supplied early sails, but not necessarily through C&C. However,
> that being said, C&C maintained a good working relationship with a number
> of individual sailmakers as stated above, and if asked for advice by the
> new boat owner, could direct them or even introduce them to those
> individuals. If a sailmaker was supplying winning sails and was willing to
> work to make C&Cs perform on the race course, then a recommendation would
> be beneficial for all parties involved.
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about a sail brand called Irish.
>
> Rob
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 1:36 PM, RANDY  wrote:
>
> Thank you for those interesting details Rob.  I've always wondered about
> the makers of the sails that came in my boat's inventory (C&C 30 MK I hull
> #7, built September 1972).  Thanks to your comment I now know about Hood
> Sails and Ed Botterell.  I've got a #1 genoa (~165%) and a storm jib from
> Hood Sails.  I've also got a working jib and a short (spinnaker pole
> topping lift) staysail from Boston Sails presumably of Sarnia, Ontario 
> (http://www.doyleboston.com/
> about.html ).
>
> Was it common for early C&Cs to be fitted with sails from those Lake
> Ontario -area sailmakers?  Anyone ever heard of a sailmaker named "Irish"?
>  (that's the logo on my mainsail, which according to the year stamped on
> its sail bag was made in 1982).
>
> Best Regards,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C&C 30-1 #7
> Ken Caryl, CO
>
> --
> *From: *"Robert Mazza via CnC-List" 
> *To: *"C&C Mailing List" 
> *Cc: *"Robert Mazza" , "Martin DeYoung" <
> martin.deyo...@outlook.com>
> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 22, 2016 10:21:01 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Stus-List 1973 custom C&C 43' - hull/deck joint (toe rail
> replacement?)
>
> Violeta,
>
> One of the photos from Martin's link is quite historic (they are all
> historic, of course, but one more than the others). See attached. It shows
> Blair Vedder (owner), Erich Bruckmann (builder), 

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Phygital via CnC-List]

Have been looking for a boat for just over a year now. Have traveled far and 
wide and dealt with numerous brokers.

I've learned the following during my journey;

- if the broker is represents both seller and buyer, either get another broker 
to represent you or establish in writing that the broker agrees to represent 
you as much as the seller. In some provinces or states this is mandated.

- some brokers seemingly have little historical knowledge of the vessel. I've 
learned the burden is up to me to ask as many questions as possible including 
grounding, propeller shaft, etc. I even ask for receipts for work done as 
verification it was professionally done. Of course extent matters on the size 
of the job.

- some brokers only answer the questions you ask, and offer nothing more, and 
it can be like pulling teeth. They won't readily  forward the survey unless you 
ask for it.

- some brokers are really great in that they get to know the boat, will sound 
the hull, take readings, etc. they do this as part of establishing the price. 
Immediately forward a survey if they have it.

- some brokers allow for communication with the owners. This is rare. I get 
concerned, but then I really start to collect information and ask a million 
questions on every system on the boat. A decent boat owner keeps bills.

- it comes down to liability, and burden of proof. Most don't get a sea trial, 
or have the engine surveyed. If it's on the hard ask to have a portion of the 
money held back for a sea trial and engine survey, or other areas you could not 
survey at the time (e.g. Mast alof) and only after transport.

- I ask when the pictures were taken, and ask for them sent to me in google 
drive so that I can first hand verify the date and time using the file meta 
data. I like to visit boats on rainy days.

- one surveyor told me... when a survey fails you sleep at night and the seller 
is awake. When a survey fails, or a discovery is made during a visit, the 
broker is obligated to inform the next potential purchaser of any defects found 
during the last survey. So it's important to ask and document and send and 
receive confirmation.

- if you cannot be there in person, try and break up your survey whereby he 
calls you at the different stages (hull, deck, mast, electrical, engine, etc). 
You can stop the survey and pay him for his time. No sense going thru an entire 
survey if you would not purchase a boat due to delamination beneath the 
waterline and a project such as that is not within your means, or you wouldn't 
feel safe. You gotta like your boat.

- remember there is a good chance you will sell your boat, so you might be in 
the same position as a seller and broker one day. It's one thing to disclose 
"new shaft" (Id say great), than repairs below waterline. Think resale. Unless 
this is your forever boat :).

- unless there is more I'd say you're ok... congratulations and enjoy your 
boat. Focus on great experiences to come.

/John

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 9:20 AM, Della Barba, Joe  wrote:
> 
> Another question:
> At what point was the boat owned by you?
> If I sold you my boat here and then the shipping firm bent the prop on the 
> way to there, I would feel bad about it but suggest the shipping firm be the 
> ones to fix it. After all, the boat was fine when it left my slip.
> If the shaft was pre-bent, someone dropped the ball somewhere regarding sea 
> trials and surveys. I am also VERY wary of brokers in general after looking 
> at a Landfall 38 described as being in good shape by the broker. The boat had 
> a leaking fuel tank, cracked ports, cracks in the fiberglass around the 
> ports, deck leaks, mold, fungus, and in general looked like it was worth the 
> salvage value of the lead. The broker admitted he didn’t like climbing so had 
> never gone down the hill to the dock and actually looked at the boat!
> Joe
> Coquina
> C&C 35 MK I
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck 
> Gilchrest via CnC-List
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 07:03
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Chuck Gilchrest 
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience
>  
> Robin,
> Sorry that your purchase resulted in a contentious relationship with your 
> broker.  First off, was this a buyer or sellers agent?  If you secured them 
> to find you a boat and post survey discovered something as serious as a bent 
> prop shaft, I would put several issues up for question:
> 1. Was the boat in the water or on the hard at purchase?
> 2. Did you accept the results of the survey without a sea trial?
> 3. If the boat was in the hard, was the engine run at the survey, both in and 
> out of gear?
>  
> If the boat was accepted for purchase with a "no" answer, the surveyor didn't 
> do their job and while most surveys will include numerous disclaimers 
> regarding liabilities, you and your broker should have caught this oversight. 
>  Did your broker recommend the surveyor?
> While this broker truly is

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

If you want to know how many times I have run aground, you would be in for a 
long conversation LOL. I think I am at 2 or so in the last week – marina needs 
to dredge again.
Seriously though, VERY good advice. I have had brokers email me a survey that 
was pretty harsh. That was putting honesty over $$ and good on them. Also note 
for C&Cs, we have a rather unique resource. I make no claim to be a surveyor, 
but I could find C&C 35 MK I issues in 10 minutes 95% of surveyors would never 
catch. A long term owner of your proposed purchase could do a once-over and 
save a lot of time and money.
Joe
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Phygital via 
CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 09:54
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Phygital 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

Have been looking for a boat for just over a year now. Have traveled far and 
wide and dealt with numerous brokers.

I've learned the following during my journey;

- if the broker is represents both seller and buyer, either get another broker 
to represent you or establish in writing that the broker agrees to represent 
you as much as the seller. In some provinces or states this is mandated.

- some brokers seemingly have little historical knowledge of the vessel. I've 
learned the burden is up to me to ask as many questions as possible including 
grounding, propeller shaft, etc. I even ask for receipts for work done as 
verification it was professionally done. Of course extent matters on the size 
of the job.

- some brokers only answer the questions you ask, and offer nothing more, and 
it can be like pulling teeth. They won't readily  forward the survey unless you 
ask for it.

- some brokers are really great in that they get to know the boat, will sound 
the hull, take readings, etc. they do this as part of establishing the price. 
Immediately forward a survey if they have it.

- some brokers allow for communication with the owners. This is rare. I get 
concerned, but then I really start to collect information and ask a million 
questions on every system on the boat. A decent boat owner keeps bills.

- it comes down to liability, and burden of proof. Most don't get a sea trial, 
or have the engine surveyed. If it's on the hard ask to have a portion of the 
money held back for a sea trial and engine survey, or other areas you could not 
survey at the time (e.g. Mast alof) and only after transport.

- I ask when the pictures were taken, and ask for them sent to me in google 
drive so that I can first hand verify the date and time using the file meta 
data. I like to visit boats on rainy days.
- one surveyor told me... when a survey fails you sleep at night and the seller 
is awake. When a survey fails, or a discovery is made during a visit, the 
broker is obligated to inform the next potential purchaser of any defects found 
during the last survey. So it's important to ask and document and send and 
receive confirmation.

- if you cannot be there in person, try and break up your survey whereby he 
calls you at the different stages (hull, deck, mast, electrical, engine, etc). 
You can stop the survey and pay him for his time. No sense going thru an entire 
survey if you would not purchase a boat due to delamination beneath the 
waterline and a project such as that is not within your means, or you wouldn't 
feel safe. You gotta like your boat.

- remember there is a good chance you will sell your boat, so you might be in 
the same position as a seller and broker one day. It's one thing to disclose 
"new shaft" (Id say great), than repairs below waterline. Think resale. Unless 
this is your forever boat :).

- unless there is more I'd say you're ok... congratulations and enjoy your 
boat. Focus on great experiences to come.

/John

On Nov 23, 2016, at 9:20 AM, Della Barba, Joe 
mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov>> wrote:
Another question:
At what point was the boat owned by you?
If I sold you my boat here and then the shipping firm bent the prop on the way 
to there, I would feel bad about it but suggest the shipping firm be the ones 
to fix it. After all, the boat was fine when it left my slip.
If the shaft was pre-bent, someone dropped the ball somewhere regarding sea 
trials and surveys. I am also VERY wary of brokers in general after looking at 
a Landfall 38 described as being in good shape by the broker. The boat had a 
leaking fuel tank, cracked ports, cracks in the fiberglass around the ports, 
deck leaks, mold, fungus, and in general looked like it was worth the salvage 
value of the lead. The broker admitted he didn’t like climbing so had never 
gone down the hill to the dock and actually looked at the boat!
Joe
Coquina
C&C 35 MK I

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck 
Gilchrest via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 07:03
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Chuck Gilchrest mailto:csgilchr...@comcast.net>>
Subject: R

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Phygital via CnC-List]

By the way... I dealt with bridge yachts in the last few weeks on my last 
search. 

Survey Failed (according to what I'm looking for), but I had a decent 
experience. There's always the feeling of "did they know more"... some 
experienced buyers see a problem (especially if structural), as a big 
negotiation point. Brokers don't know off hand what the buyer is willing to 
accept. It's an it of a crap shoot for them as well.

Owner got a quote from boatyard and asked the broker to see if we would still 
be interested if repairs were done or deduct the amount from agreed price if I 
chose to do it myself or another boat yard.

We declined, in part thinking resale, but mostly it was the thought of "is it 
safe" that would always be in the admirals mind (you know who I mean)...

I slept well that night :).

You gotta feel good about your boat. A good friend and lister (Christian), told 
me... when you buy the boat "It's Yours"... whatever you discover afterwards 
"it's yours". Hard, but really great advice.

Nothing negative to say about BY. I'm still in touch and they now know I'm a 
serious buyer and exactly what I want and questions I will ask. They are 
prepared.

The hunt is still on.


/J

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:05 AM, Della Barba, Joe  
> wrote:
> 
> If you want to know how many times I have run aground, you would be in for a 
> long conversation LOL. I think I am at 2 or so in the last week – marina 
> needs to dredge again.
> Seriously though, VERY good advice. I have had brokers email me a survey that 
> was pretty harsh. That was putting honesty over $$ and good on them. Also 
> note for C&Cs, we have a rather unique resource. I make no claim to be a 
> surveyor, but I could find C&C 35 MK I issues in 10 minutes 95% of surveyors 
> would never catch. A long term owner of your proposed purchase could do a 
> once-over and save a lot of time and money.
> Joe
> Coquina
>  
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Phygital 
> via CnC-List
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 09:54
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: Phygital 
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience
>  
> Have been looking for a boat for just over a year now. Have traveled far and 
> wide and dealt with numerous brokers.
>  
> I've learned the following during my journey;
>  
> - if the broker is represents both seller and buyer, either get another 
> broker to represent you or establish in writing that the broker agrees to 
> represent you as much as the seller. In some provinces or states this is 
> mandated.
>  
> - some brokers seemingly have little historical knowledge of the vessel. I've 
> learned the burden is up to me to ask as many questions as possible including 
> grounding, propeller shaft, etc. I even ask for receipts for work done as 
> verification it was professionally done. Of course extent matters on the size 
> of the job.
>  
> - some brokers only answer the questions you ask, and offer nothing more, and 
> it can be like pulling teeth. They won't readily  forward the survey unless 
> you ask for it.
>  
> - some brokers are really great in that they get to know the boat, will sound 
> the hull, take readings, etc. they do this as part of establishing the price. 
> Immediately forward a survey if they have it.
>  
> - some brokers allow for communication with the owners. This is rare. I get 
> concerned, but then I really start to collect information and ask a million 
> questions on every system on the boat. A decent boat owner keeps bills.
>  
> - it comes down to liability, and burden of proof. Most don't get a sea 
> trial, or have the engine surveyed. If it's on the hard ask to have a portion 
> of the money held back for a sea trial and engine survey, or other areas you 
> could not survey at the time (e.g. Mast alof) and only after transport.
>  
> - I ask when the pictures were taken, and ask for them sent to me in google 
> drive so that I can first hand verify the date and time using the file meta 
> data. I like to visit boats on rainy days.
> 
> - one surveyor told me... when a survey fails you sleep at night and the 
> seller is awake. When a survey fails, or a discovery is made during a visit, 
> the broker is obligated to inform the next potential purchaser of any defects 
> found during the last survey. So it's important to ask and document and send 
> and receive confirmation.
>  
> - if you cannot be there in person, try and break up your survey whereby he 
> calls you at the different stages (hull, deck, mast, electrical, engine, 
> etc). You can stop the survey and pay him for his time. No sense going thru 
> an entire survey if you would not purchase a boat due to delamination beneath 
> the waterline and a project such as that is not within your means, or you 
> wouldn't feel safe. You gotta like your boat.
>  
> - remember there is a good chance you will sell your boat, so you might be in 
> the same position as a seller and broker one day. It's one thing t

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Jerome Tauber via CnC-List]

With all this discussion of boats for sale I would like to let the list know 
that my 27-V 1986 is for sale on Long Island NY.  Very nice boat.  You can see 
listing at http://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/61767
I am looking to move up to a larger boat 35+ to 41 feet so if anyone has one 
for sale let me know.  Jerry J&J

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Phygital via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> By the way... I dealt with bridge yachts in the last few weeks on my last 
> search. 
> 
> Survey Failed (according to what I'm looking for), but I had a decent 
> experience. There's always the feeling of "did they know more"... some 
> experienced buyers see a problem (especially if structural), as a big 
> negotiation point. Brokers don't know off hand what the buyer is willing to 
> accept. It's an it of a crap shoot for them as well.
> 
> Owner got a quote from boatyard and asked the broker to see if we would still 
> be interested if repairs were done or deduct the amount from agreed price if 
> I chose to do it myself or another boat yard.
> 
> We declined, in part thinking resale, but mostly it was the thought of "is it 
> safe" that would always be in the admirals mind (you know who I mean)...
> 
> I slept well that night :).
> 
> You gotta feel good about your boat. A good friend and lister (Christian), 
> told me... when you buy the boat "It's Yours"... whatever you discover 
> afterwards "it's yours". Hard, but really great advice.
> 
> Nothing negative to say about BY. I'm still in touch and they now know I'm a 
> serious buyer and exactly what I want and questions I will ask. They are 
> prepared.
> 
> The hunt is still on.
> 
> 
> /J
> 
>> On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:05 AM, Della Barba, Joe  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> If you want to know how many times I have run aground, you would be in for a 
>> long conversation LOL. I think I am at 2 or so in the last week – marina 
>> needs to dredge again.
>> Seriously though, VERY good advice. I have had brokers email me a survey 
>> that was pretty harsh. That was putting honesty over $$ and good on them. 
>> Also note for C&Cs, we have a rather unique resource. I make no claim to be 
>> a surveyor, but I could find C&C 35 MK I issues in 10 minutes 95% of 
>> surveyors would never catch. A long term owner of your proposed purchase 
>> could do a once-over and save a lot of time and money.
>> Joe
>> Coquina
>>  
>> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Phygital 
>> via CnC-List
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 09:54
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> Cc: Phygital 
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience
>>  
>> Have been looking for a boat for just over a year now. Have traveled far and 
>> wide and dealt with numerous brokers.
>>  
>> I've learned the following during my journey;
>>  
>> - if the broker is represents both seller and buyer, either get another 
>> broker to represent you or establish in writing that the broker agrees to 
>> represent you as much as the seller. In some provinces or states this is 
>> mandated.
>>  
>> - some brokers seemingly have little historical knowledge of the vessel. 
>> I've learned the burden is up to me to ask as many questions as possible 
>> including grounding, propeller shaft, etc. I even ask for receipts for work 
>> done as verification it was professionally done. Of course extent matters on 
>> the size of the job.
>>  
>> - some brokers only answer the questions you ask, and offer nothing more, 
>> and it can be like pulling teeth. They won't readily  forward the survey 
>> unless you ask for it.
>>  
>> - some brokers are really great in that they get to know the boat, will 
>> sound the hull, take readings, etc. they do this as part of establishing the 
>> price. Immediately forward a survey if they have it.
>>  
>> - some brokers allow for communication with the owners. This is rare. I get 
>> concerned, but then I really start to collect information and ask a million 
>> questions on every system on the boat. A decent boat owner keeps bills.
>>  
>> - it comes down to liability, and burden of proof. Most don't get a sea 
>> trial, or have the engine surveyed. If it's on the hard ask to have a 
>> portion of the money held back for a sea trial and engine survey, or other 
>> areas you could not survey at the time (e.g. Mast alof) and only after 
>> transport.
>>  
>> - I ask when the pictures were taken, and ask for them sent to me in google 
>> drive so that I can first hand verify the date and time using the file meta 
>> data. I like to visit boats on rainy days.
>> 
>> - one surveyor told me... when a survey fails you sleep at night and the 
>> seller is awake. When a survey fails, or a discovery is made during a visit, 
>> the broker is obligated to inform the next potential purchaser of any 
>> defects found during the last survey. So it's important to ask and document 
>> and send and receive confirmation.
>>  
>> - if you cannot be there in person, try and brea

Re: Stus-List Early C&C Sails and boat design (was Re: 1973 custom C&C 43' - hull/deck joint (toe rail replacement?)

[bushmark4--- via CnC-List]

 Rob, Hank, et al...this information is wonderful to hear and learn about...you 
guys should get this down on paper (er, data file) and have it placed on the 
Photo Album; I, for one, (along with several others on this list, having owned 
four of them) really appreciate hearing anything about how these boats went 
from "ides" to the physical things we dote so much time and dollars on...thanks 
again.

 


Richard
S/V Bushmark4  1985 C&C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596; 


Richard N. Bush 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Robert Mazza via CnC-List 
To: C&C Mailing List 
Cc: Robert Mazza 
Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:31 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Early C&C Sails (was Re: 1973 custom C&C 43' - hull/deck 
joint (toe rail replacement?)



Hi Hank,


Good to hear from you. Yes. you are correct. The Mega was the sole exception to 
C&C not working with a designated sailmaker. As you remember, Peter Barrett of 
North Sails was one of the driving forces behind the Mega, so it was always 
envisioned to be a collaborative effort. I had somehow blocked that from my 
memory, but it was definitely "the exception that proves the rule". 


Rob


On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:45 PM, henry evans via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Hi Rob,


Enjoyed your dissertation on sails.


Correct me if I am wrong, but in our joint venture with North Sails on the MEGA 
, didn't we provide North Sails with the boat ?  Or at least offered them ?   
Between you as the design project manager and me as the sales/marketing project 
manager, and in spite of our advancing age and failing memories, one of us 
should be able to remember :) 


Regarding the other question raised : I think I can shed some light.  One of 
the dealers I handled was Dave Irish at Irish Boat Shop in Harbor Springs, MI 
on Lake Michigan's Grand Traverse Bay.  Dave was very good racing sailor and 
was crew on at least one or two of our Americas Cup 12 Meter teams. He was also 
a senior national officer in what now has become US Sailing.   Jack Culley at 
Sailboats, Inc. was having such good success selling C&C's that he told Dave he 
should talk to me.  I flew out, we talked and I set him up as a C&C  dealer 
sometime around 1978 or 79.  He sold a number of boats for us on the eastern 
shore of the lake. Dave had a small loft in conjunction with his dealership and 
boat yards.  He sold them under the "Irish Sails" label. I suspect that is what 
the gentleman is referring to.  


As you may recall, when I first joined C&C in 1977, you were the one who spent 
several hours explaining to a rookie salesman the basics of NACA foils, the 
details of our unique hull/deck joint and many of the other engineering 
parameters we were using to design and build fast boats. That knowledge helped 
me sell a lot of C&C's over my years with the company.  I always enjoy reading 
your perspectives on design, the industry and C&C Yachts. 


Cheers,


Hank
 



 
 







___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Persuasion37 via CnC-List]

Persuasion is not listed yet but in anyone is interested they can contacted me 
off list.  Latest survey spring of 2014.  Cruiser not a racer.  Well I've never 
raced in the 10 years I've owned her.

Seriously one of these days I'll have to make a list of all the upgrades and 
maintenance I've done.


Mike
PERSUASION
www.persuasion37.com
C&C 37 K/CB
Long Sault

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:48 AM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> With all this discussion of boats for sale I would like to let the list know 
> that my 27-V 1986 is for sale on Long Island NY.  Very nice boat.  You can 
> see listing at http://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/61767
> I am looking to move up to a larger boat 35+ to 41 feet so if anyone has one 
> for sale let me know.  Jerry J&J
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Phygital via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> By the way... I dealt with bridge yachts in the last few weeks on my last 
>> search. 
>> 
>> Survey Failed (according to what I'm looking for), but I had a decent 
>> experience. There's always the feeling of "did they know more"... some 
>> experienced buyers see a problem (especially if structural), as a big 
>> negotiation point. Brokers don't know off hand what the buyer is willing to 
>> accept. It's an it of a crap shoot for them as well.
>> 
>> Owner got a quote from boatyard and asked the broker to see if we would 
>> still be interested if repairs were done or deduct the amount from agreed 
>> price if I chose to do it myself or another boat yard.
>> 
>> We declined, in part thinking resale, but mostly it was the thought of "is 
>> it safe" that would always be in the admirals mind (you know who I mean)...
>> 
>> I slept well that night :).
>> 
>> You gotta feel good about your boat. A good friend and lister (Christian), 
>> told me... when you buy the boat "It's Yours"... whatever you discover 
>> afterwards "it's yours". Hard, but really great advice.
>> 
>> Nothing negative to say about BY. I'm still in touch and they now know I'm a 
>> serious buyer and exactly what I want and questions I will ask. They are 
>> prepared.
>> 
>> The hunt is still on.
>> 
>> 
>> /J
>> 
>>> On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:05 AM, Della Barba, Joe  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If you want to know how many times I have run aground, you would be in for 
>>> a long conversation LOL. I think I am at 2 or so in the last week – marina 
>>> needs to dredge again.
>>> Seriously though, VERY good advice. I have had brokers email me a survey 
>>> that was pretty harsh. That was putting honesty over $$ and good on them. 
>>> Also note for C&Cs, we have a rather unique resource. I make no claim to be 
>>> a surveyor, but I could find C&C 35 MK I issues in 10 minutes 95% of 
>>> surveyors would never catch. A long term owner of your proposed purchase 
>>> could do a once-over and save a lot of time and money.
>>> Joe
>>> Coquina
>>>  
>>> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Phygital 
>>> via CnC-List
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 09:54
>>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>>> Cc: Phygital 
>>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience
>>>  
>>> Have been looking for a boat for just over a year now. Have traveled far 
>>> and wide and dealt with numerous brokers.
>>>  
>>> I've learned the following during my journey;
>>>  
>>> - if the broker is represents both seller and buyer, either get another 
>>> broker to represent you or establish in writing that the broker agrees to 
>>> represent you as much as the seller. In some provinces or states this is 
>>> mandated.
>>>  
>>> - some brokers seemingly have little historical knowledge of the vessel. 
>>> I've learned the burden is up to me to ask as many questions as possible 
>>> including grounding, propeller shaft, etc. I even ask for receipts for work 
>>> done as verification it was professionally done. Of course extent matters 
>>> on the size of the job.
>>>  
>>> - some brokers only answer the questions you ask, and offer nothing more, 
>>> and it can be like pulling teeth. They won't readily  forward the survey 
>>> unless you ask for it.
>>>  
>>> - some brokers are really great in that they get to know the boat, will 
>>> sound the hull, take readings, etc. they do this as part of establishing 
>>> the price. Immediately forward a survey if they have it.
>>>  
>>> - some brokers allow for communication with the owners. This is rare. I get 
>>> concerned, but then I really start to collect information and ask a million 
>>> questions on every system on the boat. A decent boat owner keeps bills.
>>>  
>>> - it comes down to liability, and burden of proof. Most don't get a sea 
>>> trial, or have the engine surveyed. If it's on the hard ask to have a 
>>> portion of the money held back for a sea trial and engine survey, or other 
>>> areas you could not survey at the time (e.g. Mast alof) and only after 
>>> transport.
>>>  
>>> - I ask when the pictures were taken, and ask for them sent to me in 

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Graham Young via CnC-List]

A lot of my experience has been similar to what John described above
In my case, I spoke with the surveyor yesterday and he plans to try to get to 
the boat this Sunday before the temps begin to freeze consistently.  Initially, 
I told him I would not be able to be there (although would prefer to be) given 
that holiday travel would take me even further away from Port Dover than I 
already live, but I'm thinking about altering my plans and making the long 
drive to be there in person.  He indicated that he would call if he encountered 
anything that would lead him to recommend walking away from the boat and end 
the survey at that point with a charge of half his fee.  
The surveyor I hired also is an engine mechanic and includes an engine survey 
as part of the pre-purchase survey, but he said he would not do it until the 
Spring when the boat was in the water.  The agreement I have includes a 
satisfactory (to me) engine survey, but I halfway expect to be pressured to 
forgo this to close the deal before Spring.  We'll see
Graham YoungS/V Spellbound1981 C&C 32 (on the hard and for sale)Cleveland, O. 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 11:04 AM, Persuasion37 via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 Persuasion is not listed yet but in anyone is interested they can contacted me 
off list.  Latest survey spring of 2014.  Cruiser not a racer.  Well I've never 
raced in the 10 years I've owned her.

Seriously one of these days I'll have to make a list of all the upgrades and 
maintenance I've done.

MikePERSUASIONwww.persuasion37.com
C&C 37 K/CBLong Sault
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:48 AM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List 
 wrote:



With all this discussion of boats for sale I would like to let the list know 
that my 27-V 1986 is for sale on Long Island NY.  Very nice boat.  You can see 
listing at http://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/61767I am looking to move up to a 
larger boat 35+ to 41 feet so if anyone has one for sale let me know.  Jerry J&J

Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Phygital via CnC-List  
wrote:



By the way... I dealt with bridge yachts in the last few weeks on my last 
search. 
Survey Failed (according to what I'm looking for), but I had a decent 
experience. There's always the feeling of "did they know more"... some 
experienced buyers see a problem (especially if structural), as a big 
negotiation point. Brokers don't know off hand what the buyer is willing to 
accept. It's an it of a crap shoot for them as well.
Owner got a quote from boatyard and asked the broker to see if we would still 
be interested if repairs were done or deduct the amount from agreed price if I 
chose to do it myself or another boat yard.
We declined, in part thinking resale, but mostly it was the thought of "is it 
safe" that would always be in the admirals mind (you know who I mean)...
I slept well that night :).
You gotta feel good about your boat. A good friend and lister (Christian), told 
me... when you buy the boat "It's Yours"... whatever you discover afterwards 
"it's yours". Hard, but really great advice.
Nothing negative to say about BY. I'm still in touch and they now know I'm a 
serious buyer and exactly what I want and questions I will ask. They are 
prepared.
The hunt is still on.


/J
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:05 AM, Della Barba, Joe  wrote:



#yiv3104702378 #yiv3104702378 -- _filtered #yiv3104702378 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 
6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3104702378 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 
3 2 4;}#yiv3104702378 #yiv3104702378 p.yiv3104702378MsoNormal, #yiv3104702378 
li.yiv3104702378MsoNormal, #yiv3104702378 div.yiv3104702378MsoNormal 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3104702378 a:link, 
#yiv3104702378 span.yiv3104702378MsoHyperlink 
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3104702378 a:visited, #yiv3104702378 
span.yiv3104702378MsoHyperlinkFollowed 
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3104702378 
span.yiv3104702378EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3104702378 
span.yiv3104702378EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3104702378 
.yiv3104702378MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv3104702378 
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv3104702378 div.yiv3104702378WordSection1 
{}#yiv3104702378 If you want to know how many times I have run aground, you 
would be in for a long conversation LOL. I think I am at 2 or so in the last 
week – marina needs to dredge again. Seriously though, VERY good advice. I have 
had brokers email me a survey that was pretty harsh. That was putting honesty 
over $$ and good on them. Also note for C&Cs, we have a rather unique resource. 
I make no claim to be a surveyor, but I could find C&C 35 MK I issues in 10 
minutes 95% of surveyors would never catch. A long term owner of your proposed 
purchase could do a once-over and save a lot of time and money. Joe Coquina    
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Phygital via 
CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 09:54
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Phygi

Stus-List Brokers and surveyors

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Buying a boat from a broker without a buyer’s agent is the same as buying a 
house with no realtor representing you.   And doing so from long distance, 
stacks the deck even further against you.  The seller’s agent is looking out 
for the seller and themselves.  Period.  Since that agent gets commission based 
upon the selling price of the boat, why would they negotiate for a cheaper 
price on your behalf?  And generally, if you have your own broker, the 
commission paid to the buyers broker is often a portion of the fees collected 
by the agent listing the boat.  

 

To the topic of knowledgeable brokers and surveyors, I think that most brokers 
tend to follow the money trail and focus their energy and expertise on what 
will yield the greatest return for them and their company.  Many yacht brokers 
are passing up listings of 30-40 year old sailboats because demand is low, the 
potential buyers are cheapskates (yes, that includes us!) and the time and 
money it takes to list an old “fixer upper” may result in the broker being 
upside down in recovering their costs.  If they take on an older boat, they’d 
prefer to list the 40 year old Hinckley or Morris Yacht that still sells for 
over $100K, which means their commission actually amounts to some return for 
the effort.  This is why you see more and more cheap boats being represented by 
“discount” online brokers like POP Yachts, where the virtual brokerage is 
located in Florida and their “regional” sales agent collects  photos from the 
owner and shows the boat to clients.  This person may have 50-100 boats listed 
and may never have first-hand knowledge of any of them.  From experience, the 
regional guy is not usually a sailor and he may have inherited the listing from 
a prior broker who may no longer be with the company.  

 

When I purchased Half Magic last winter, I was fortunate that my surveyor, Mike 
Collier from Marine Safety in Fairhaven, MA, is also a C&C Landfall 38 owner 
and was very excited to run a fine tooth comb over my purchase.  I scheduled 
the survey to be performed when I could be there too.  Even so, we surveyed in 
January with the boat out of the water and we missed a few things.  First off, 
the boat had no operational batteries, so we had to hook up the electrics to a 
temporary battery to see if everything worked.  Items like the refrigeration 
compressor “turned on” but I was later to find out that the refrigerant charge 
wasn’t sufficient to cool down the icebox during the summer.  How do you 
determine that in January when EVERYTHING was cold and freezing? 

 It was difficult, but we managed to run the engine on auxiliary fuel and 
water.   Despite draining the fuel cell after purchase,  I discovered 
substantial residue in the fuel tank from the boat sitting for such a long time 
on the hard, resulting in a few clogged filters at some very inopportune times 
during the course of the summer.  There are certainly times I wish for the 
simplicity of my previous 25Mk 1 with very little interior plumbing, a simple 
outboard motor, and no electronics to go haywire.

 

I’ve also heard of some folks getting two surveys on a boat purchase, one very 
thorough survey to be as informed as possible and the other as a more “general” 
survey that can be submitted to an insurance company to allow an older boat to 
be insured if there may some problems that the owner wants to fix on his own 
but perhaps not right away.

Be wary of boats that have been listed for many months and are now listed at 
significantly reduced price.  Those are the boats that were initially priced 
well if they were in good shape, but problems came up and the broker or owner 
didn’t want to go the expense of fixing the problem.  To think that you can fix 
those problems cheaper than the original owner or a yard that is able to buy 
parts and labor at wholesale, may be a bit of a pipedream.

 

Chuck Gilchrest

S/V Half Magic

1983 35 Landfall



This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[doug.welch--- via CnC-List]

I bought and sold boats on the hard last year. I wouldn't accept a condition 
that didn't expire until spring and I didn't ask the seller to. I protected 
myself as buyer with a hold back as did the purchaser of my old boat. If your 
seller agrees to the condition then great, however you may want to think think 
of how much of a hold back will let you sleep at night.
Cheers,Doug
Celtic Knot85 33-2 cb

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Graham Young via 
CnC-List wrote:   

A lot of my experience has been similar to what John described above
In my case, I spoke with the surveyor yesterday and he plans to try to get to 
the boat this Sunday before the temps begin to freeze consistently.  Initially, 
I told him I would not be able to be there (although would prefer to be) given 
that holiday travel would take me even further away from Port Dover than I 
already live, but I'm thinking about altering my plans and making the long 
drive to be there in person.  He indicated that he would call if he encountered 
anything that would lead him to recommend walking away from the boat and end 
the survey at that point with a charge of half his fee.  
The surveyor I hired also is an engine mechanic and includes an engine survey 
as part of the pre-purchase survey, but he said he would not do it until the 
Spring when the boat was in the water.  The agreement I have includes a 
satisfactory (to me) engine survey, but I halfway expect to be pressured to 
forgo this to close the deal before Spring.  We'll see
Graham YoungS/V Spellbound1981 C&C 32 (on the hard and for sale)Cleveland, O. 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 11:04 AM, Persuasion37 via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 Persuasion is not listed yet but in anyone is interested they can contacted me 
off list.  Latest survey spring of 2014.  Cruiser not a racer.  Well I've never 
raced in the 10 years I've owned her.

Seriously one of these days I'll have to make a list of all the upgrades and 
maintenance I've done.

MikePERSUASIONwww.persuasion37.com
C&C 37 K/CBLong Sault
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:48 AM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List 
 wrote:



With all this discussion of boats for sale I would like to let the list know 
that my 27-V 1986 is for sale on Long Island NY.  Very nice boat.  You can see 
listing at http://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/61767I am looking to move up to a 
larger boat 35+ to 41 feet so if anyone has one for sale let me know.  Jerry J&J

Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Phygital via CnC-List  
wrote:



By the way... I dealt with bridge yachts in the last few weeks on my last 
search. 
Survey Failed (according to what I'm looking for), but I had a decent 
experience. There's always the feeling of "did they know more"... some 
experienced buyers see a problem (especially if structural), as a big 
negotiation point. Brokers don't know off hand what the buyer is willing to 
accept. It's an it of a crap shoot for them as well.
Owner got a quote from boatyard and asked the broker to see if we would still 
be interested if repairs were done or deduct the amount from agreed price if I 
chose to do it myself or another boat yard.
We declined, in part thinking resale, but mostly it was the thought of "is it 
safe" that would always be in the admirals mind (you know who I mean)...
I slept well that night :).
You gotta feel good about your boat. A good friend and lister (Christian), told 
me... when you buy the boat "It's Yours"... whatever you discover afterwards 
"it's yours". Hard, but really great advice.
Nothing negative to say about BY. I'm still in touch and they now know I'm a 
serious buyer and exactly what I want and questions I will ask. They are 
prepared.
The hunt is still on.


/J
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:05 AM, Della Barba, Joe  wrote:



#yiv3104702378 #yiv3104702378 -- filtered #yiv3104702378 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 
6 3 2 4;}filtered #yiv3104702378 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 
2 4;}#yiv3104702378 #yiv3104702378 p.yiv3104702378MsoNormal, #yiv3104702378 
li.yiv3104702378MsoNormal, #yiv3104702378 div.yiv3104702378MsoNormal 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv3104702378 a:link, 
#yiv3104702378 span.yiv3104702378MsoHyperlink 
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3104702378 a:visited, #yiv3104702378 
span.yiv3104702378MsoHyperlinkFollowed 
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3104702378 
span.yiv3104702378EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3104702378 
span.yiv3104702378EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv3104702378 
.yiv3104702378MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}filtered #yiv3104702378 
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv3104702378 div.yiv3104702378WordSection1 
{}If you want to know how many times I have run aground, you would be in for a 
long conversation LOL. I think I am at 2 or so in the last week – marina needs 
to dredge again. Seriously though, VERY good advice. I have had brokers email 
me a survey that was pretty harsh. That was putting 

Re: Stus-List Bridge Yacht Experience

[Graham Young via CnC-List]

Actually, I didn't ask the seller to accept a condition that would not expire 
until the Spring.  The brokerage indicated that the engine could be inspected 
on the hard and re-winterized.  The surveyor sees it differently.  So, a hold 
back is most likely what we will do.
Graham 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 1:36 PM, doug.welch--- via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 I bought and sold boats on the hard last year. I wouldn't accept a condition 
that didn't expire until spring and I didn't ask the seller to. I protected 
myself as buyer with a hold back as did the purchaser of my old boat. If your 
seller agrees to the condition then great, however you may want to think think 
of how much of a hold back will let you sleep at night.
Cheers,Doug
Celtic Knot85 33-2 cb

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
 On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Graham Young via 
CnC-List wrote:  

A lot of my experience has been similar to what John described above
In my case, I spoke with the surveyor yesterday and he plans to try to get to 
the boat this Sunday before the temps begin to freeze consistently.  Initially, 
I told him I would not be able to be there (although would prefer to be) given 
that holiday travel would take me even further away from Port Dover than I 
already live, but I'm thinking about altering my plans and making the long 
drive to be there in person.  He indicated that he would call if he encountered 
anything that would lead him to recommend walking away from the boat and end 
the survey at that point with a charge of half his fee.  
The surveyor I hired also is an engine mechanic and includes an engine survey 
as part of the pre-purchase survey, but he said he would not do it until the 
Spring when the boat was in the water.  The agreement I have includes a 
satisfactory (to me) engine survey, but I halfway expect to be pressured to 
forgo this to close the deal before Spring.  We'll see
Graham YoungS/V Spellbound1981 C&C 32 (on the hard and for sale)Cleveland, O. 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 11:04 AM, Persuasion37 via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 Persuasion is not listed yet but in anyone is interested they can contacted me 
off list.  Latest survey spring of 2014.  Cruiser not a racer.  Well I've never 
raced in the 10 years I've owned her.

Seriously one of these days I'll have to make a list of all the upgrades and 
maintenance I've done.

MikePERSUASIONwww.persuasion37.com
C&C 37 K/CBLong Sault
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:48 AM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List 
 wrote:



With all this discussion of boats for sale I would like to let the list know 
that my 27-V 1986 is for sale on Long Island NY.  Very nice boat.  You can see 
listing at http://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/61767I am looking to move up to a 
larger boat 35+ to 41 feet so if anyone has one for sale let me know.  Jerry J&J

Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Phygital via CnC-List  
wrote:



By the way... I dealt with bridge yachts in the last few weeks on my last 
search. 
Survey Failed (according to what I'm looking for), but I had a decent 
experience. There's always the feeling of "did they know more"... some 
experienced buyers see a problem (especially if structural), as a big 
negotiation point. Brokers don't know off hand what the buyer is willing to 
accept. It's an it of a crap shoot for them as well.
Owner got a quote from boatyard and asked the broker to see if we would still 
be interested if repairs were done or deduct the amount from agreed price if I 
chose to do it myself or another boat yard.
We declined, in part thinking resale, but mostly it was the thought of "is it 
safe" that would always be in the admirals mind (you know who I mean)...
I slept well that night :).
You gotta feel good about your boat. A good friend and lister (Christian), told 
me... when you buy the boat "It's Yours"... whatever you discover afterwards 
"it's yours". Hard, but really great advice.
Nothing negative to say about BY. I'm still in touch and they now know I'm a 
serious buyer and exactly what I want and questions I will ask. They are 
prepared.
The hunt is still on.


/J
On Nov 23, 2016, at 10:05 AM, Della Barba, Joe  wrote:



#yiv9998766335 -- filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv9998766335 
filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv9998766335 
p.yiv9998766335MsoNormal, #yiv9998766335 li.yiv9998766335MsoNormal, 
#yiv9998766335 div.yiv9998766335MsoNormal 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9998766335 a:link, 
#yiv9998766335 span.yiv9998766335MsoHyperlink 
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9998766335 a:visited, #yiv9998766335 
span.yiv9998766335MsoHyperlinkFollowed 
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9998766335 
span.yiv9998766335EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9998766335 
span.yiv9998766335EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9998766335 
.yiv9998766335MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv9998766335 filtered 
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9998766335 d

Re: Stus-List Maine Sail - source of the butyl tape,

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

Violeta,

Your mileage would vary, but many people had pretty good results with that 
tape. He also did some interesting testing of a few different products. I am 
not trying to say that Maine Sail’s butyl tape is the best in the world, but it 
is pretty good, for sure. The differences are in holding (sticking) power and 
in how much it would dry out over time.

Marek

From: Violeta Ivanova [mailto:vmivan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 17:24
To: Marek Dziedzic 
Subject: Re: Maine Sail - source of the butyl tape,

I just checked the website again. So many good articles - how did I miss that? 
I think you sent a direct link to the butyl tape page before, so I looked at 
that, but did not realize there was a bigger web resource behind it. Yes, great 
website. Thanks for the email.
Violeta

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Violeta Ivanova 
mailto:vmivan...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks, Marek. That web link was very useful. I could not find a website for 
the company before that. What makes that butyl tape from Maine Sail better than 
"non-marine" grade one can find at stores like Home Depot? I asked similar 
questions on another forum, but there's no answer yet.
- Violeta

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Marek Dziedzic 
mailto:dziedzi...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Violeta,

I mentioned Maine Sail as a source of the best butyl tape, but if you don’t 
know that web site, I encourage you to look. Tons of interesting information 
related to sailing.

Marek


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!