Re: Stus-List bowsprit/asym - PHRF implications

[Hoyt, Mike]

All

The reason I was contacting Eric re this is that not all areas have this
fully defined at this time.  Be very careful in consulting and working
with your PHRF area authority so that you get the maximum benefit for
the least penalty and combine that with your ease of use and speed.

In PHRFNS we are currently for conventional symmetric spinnakers -
sec/mile for each increment of up to 10% of J for either pole or
spinnaker size.  This is pretty clearly defined.

For a standard symmetric boat that has an ASYM in place of a symmetric
spin tacked centerline at bow is a +9 sec/mile adjustment masthead and
+6 fractional.  

Where it is currently fuzzy is for conventional boats converting to a
sprit and how much of an adjustment based on sprit length and asym size.

Is an interesting topic and one we have been working with.  We also have
in fact has owners approaching us asking these questions as they are
planning to make this conversion.  Interestingly this is coming from
race boats not cruisers.

Mike 

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Will
Harris
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 12:26 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List bowsprit/asym

For the boats you guys are talking about, C&C 34, C&C 40s etc., in 
fairness you should get a hefty PHRF CREDIT, for switching to asyms.  
You guys can cream the sprit boats dead down in moderate breeze.  Just 
pull the pole back and aim for the mark.

I sailed an RCYC Open a few years back on a really well-sailed Bene 
10.4, ( awful boat... but I digress).
"Red Jacket" was in our class and we owed her a bunch of time.  We'd 
dust her upwind, then go reaching around on our gybe angles.  She'd 
round behind, square back and just grind our bendy, french asses into
dust.

If it was a 5 leg course, we had a chance. Downwind finish??... 
fageddaboudit.

Not all PHRF committees have figured this out.  If you do switch, your 
rating should get significantly BETTER.  Sadly, it probably won't.

-- 
Will Harris
Waterline Systems

716-531-6088


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Stus-List BinocularS

[Tom B]

I thought this might be interesting, considering the recent string...

Tom B
> 
> 
> Is this emailthought some might find thus of interest... not displaying 
> correctly? View it in your browser.
>   
>   
> Need Assistance? 
> 800.426.6930 
> fisheriessupply.com 
> i...@fisheriessupply.com
> 
> Weekender Marine Binocular
> 7 x 50 Water-Resistant
> • Progressive design 
> • Water resistant 
> • Center focus 
> • BAK 4 prisms 
> • Retained lens caps 
> • Green-coated lenses 
> • Power: 7x50 
> • Field view angle: 6.6°
> • Field of view: 116m at 1000m
> Up to 20% Off!
> 
>   
> WaterSport Marine Binocular
> 7 x 50 Waterproof & Fogproof
> • Waterproof/fogproof 
> • Nitrogen filled 
> • Center focus 
> • BAK 4 prisms 
> • Retained lens caps 
> Up to 20% Off!
> Fisheries Supply Gift Card
> The Perfect Gift for the Boat Owner!
> Fisheries Supply has something for everyone. Our handsome, water droplet 
> design is sure to turn heads and brighten any boaters day. We can send gift 
> cards to you, or mail them directly to your friends and family. They never 
> expire and no service fees will ever be charged when purchasing or using a 
> Fisheries Supply gift card.
> 
> 
>   
> You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website, at our 
> store, or at one of our sponsored events. If you wish to no longer receive 
> these emails, you can always unsubscribe.
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Re: Stus-List BinocularS

[Joel Aronson]

Tom,

Thanks.  Nice price!

BTW, I ruled out the Fuji - no center focus.  Still shopping!

Joel


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Tom B  wrote:

> I thought this might be interesting, considering the recent string...
>
> Tom B
>
>
>Is this emailthought some might find thus of interest... not
> displaying correctly? View it in your 
> browser.
>[image: Fisheries Supply Marine Supplies Since 
> 1928]
>  <8004266930> 
> 
>  
>  *Need Assistance?*
> 800.426.6930 <8004266930>
> fisheriessupply.com
> i...@fisheriessupply.com
>   *Weekender Marine 
> Binocular*
>   *7
> x 50 Water-Resistant*  • Progressive design
> • Water resistant
> • Center focus
> • BAK 4 prisms
> • Retained lens caps
> • Green-coated lenses
> • Power: 7x50
> • Field view angle: 6.6°
> • Field of view: 116m at 1000m  *Up to 20% 
> Off!*
> 
>  
> 
>*WaterSport
> Marine Binocular
> *
>   *7
> x 50 Waterproof & Fogproof*  • Waterproof/fogproof
> • Nitrogen filled
> • Center focus
> • BAK 4 prisms
> • Retained lens caps   *Up to 20% 
> Off!*
> *Fisheries
> Supply Gift Card
> *
>   *The
> Perfect Gift for the Boat Owner!*  Fisheries Supply has something for
> everyone. Our handsome, water droplet design is sure to turn heads and
> brighten any boaters day. We can send gift cards to you, or mail them
> directly to your friends and family. They never expire and no service fees
> will ever be charged when purchasing or using a Fisheries Supply gift card.   
>  
> 
>[image:
> FREE Shipping on Orders Over $99 *Restrictions apply. Click for details.]
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website, at our
> store, or at one of our sponsored events. If you wish to no longer receive
> these emails, you can always 
> *unsubscribe*.
>
> *Fisheries Supply  1900 N Northlake Way,
> Seattle, WA 98103 800.426.6930 <8004266930> fisheriessupply.com
> *
> © Copyright Fisheries Supply 2013. All rights reserved.
>
>
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-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List bowsprit/asym

[Eric Baumes]

The PHRF Regs we sail under on the Hudson River are here
http://www.yralis.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=555474&module_id=88095

They are more generous in terms of sprit length for W/L courses. Up to 24%
of J without penalty, but less generous with the credits. Where you get
zinged is on a distance Race.

If you fly an Asym off a pole, there is no penalty as long as it is not a
penalty chute (SMW <=180%). for your boat. If you delcare both Sprit and
Symmetrical you get zinged (reviewed by committee case by case) and if you
fly a chute designed for your sprit off a pole, it is rated as a penalty
chute. If you don't declare it and try it you could get DSQ for equipment
violation.

Eric

___

"I want 10,000 tough guys, and I want 10,000 soft guys to make the tough
guys look tougher! And here's how I want them arranged: tough, soft, tough,
tough, soft, tough, soft, soft, tough, tough, soft, soft, tough, soft,
tough, soft!"

*Russ Cargill*



On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Ron Casciato wrote:

> Eric:
> This is an active topic this time of year. but I'd make sure you
> are
> reading your regs, correctly.
> Here in New England, the Handicapping section of the website
> www.nephrf.org
> specifically discusses using an ASYM vs SYM spinnakers.
>
> Basically, if you race in a fleet with spinnakers, using an ASYM, there is
> no penalty to your racing rating.  If you then disclose that you "have no
> pole" you get a 9 sec. allowance added to your racing rating.
>
> If, however, you decide to use a "sprit" you can go 10% of the J dimension
> without a penalty, for every 10% additional, you get a 3 second penalty.
>
> I've had this reviewed for my 38MKIIC with a 16.5' "J".  the longest I can
> go beyond the tack fitting is 19.2" anything longer incurs a penalty.
>
> Someone mentioned the furling ASYM systems..which are really nifty.
> The issue for boats without a sprit is that that clearance at the top often
> binds and it gets hairy when rolling up the ASYM.  You'd have to add a
> "crane" out in front of the current mast plate to accommodate both furlers
> at the top.  Additionally, the stresses on the sprit pole is significant
> since the "torsion rope luff" needs to be tensioned very tight..as someone
> also said, these systems are evolving and may need some time to mature.
>
> Agreed, however, on the Selden system.excellent materials and design..
>
> Good luck with your project, just check the details of the rating system in
> your area.
>
> Best,
>
> Ron C.
> Impromptu
> C&C 38MKIIC  '77
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Will
> Harris
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 11:26 AM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List bowsprit/asym
>
> For the boats you guys are talking about, C&C 34, C&C 40s etc., in
> fairness you should get a hefty PHRF CREDIT, for switching to asyms.
> You guys can cream the sprit boats dead down in moderate breeze.  Just
> pull the pole back and aim for the mark.
>
> I sailed an RCYC Open a few years back on a really well-sailed Bene
> 10.4, ( awful boat... but I digress).
> "Red Jacket" was in our class and we owed her a bunch of time.  We'd
> dust her upwind, then go reaching around on our gybe angles.  She'd
> round behind, square back and just grind our bendy, french asses into dust.
>
> If it was a 5 leg course, we had a chance. Downwind finish??...
> fageddaboudit.
>
> Not all PHRF committees have figured this out.  If you do switch, your
> rating should get significantly BETTER.  Sadly, it probably won't.
>
> --
> Will Harris
> Waterline Systems
>
> 716-531-6088
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
>
>
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>
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Re: Stus-List BinocularS

[Jim Watts]

I looked through the Pro Mariner series when I was working at another
marine retailer. Meh.


On 9 December 2013 07:11, Tom B  wrote:

> I thought this might be interesting, considering the recent string...
>
> Tom B
>
>
>Is this emailthought some might find thus of interest... not
> displaying correctly? View it in your 
> browser.
>[image: Fisheries Supply Marine Supplies Since 
> 1928]
>  <8004266930> 
> 
>  
>  *Need Assistance?*
> 800.426.6930 <8004266930>
> fisheriessupply.com
> i...@fisheriessupply.com
>   *Weekender Marine 
> Binocular*
>   *7
> x 50 Water-Resistant*  • Progressive design
> • Water resistant
> • Center focus
> • BAK 4 prisms
> • Retained lens caps
> • Green-coated lenses
> • Power: 7x50
> • Field view angle: 6.6°
> • Field of view: 116m at 1000m  *Up to 20% 
> Off!*
> 
>  
> 
>*WaterSport
> Marine Binocular
> *
>   *7
> x 50 Waterproof & Fogproof*  • Waterproof/fogproof
> • Nitrogen filled
> • Center focus
> • BAK 4 prisms
> • Retained lens caps   *Up to 20% 
> Off!*
> *Fisheries
> Supply Gift Card
> *
>   *The
> Perfect Gift for the Boat Owner!*  Fisheries Supply has something for
> everyone. Our handsome, water droplet design is sure to turn heads and
> brighten any boaters day. We can send gift cards to you, or mail them
> directly to your friends and family. They never expire and no service fees
> will ever be charged when purchasing or using a Fisheries Supply gift card.   
>  
> 
>[image:
> FREE Shipping on Orders Over $99 *Restrictions apply. Click for details.]
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>   You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website, at our
> store, or at one of our sponsored events. If you wish to no longer receive
> these emails, you can always 
> *unsubscribe*.
>
> *Fisheries Supply  1900 N Northlake Way,
> Seattle, WA 98103 800.426.6930 <8004266930> fisheriessupply.com
> *
> © Copyright Fisheries Supply 2013. All rights reserved.
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
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> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
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>


-- 
Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C&C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC
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Re: Stus-List BinocularS

[Rich Knowles]

Geez, Jim, any binoculars that can spot flying reindeer have gotta be great! 
They are not easy to see.

Rich

On Dec 9, 2013, at 12:20 PM, Jim Watts  wrote:

I looked through the Pro Mariner series when I was working at another marine 
retailer. Meh. 


On 9 December 2013 07:11, Tom B  wrote:
I thought this might be interesting, considering the recent string...

Tom B
> 
> 
> Is this emailthought some might find thus of interest... not displaying 
> correctly? View it in your browser.
>   
>   
> Need Assistance? 
> 800.426.6930 
> fisheriessupply.com 
> i...@fisheriessupply.com
> 
> Weekender Marine Binocular
> 7 x 50 Water-Resistant
> • Progressive design 
> • Water resistant 
> • Center focus 
> • BAK 4 prisms 
> • Retained lens caps 
> • Green-coated lenses 
> • Power: 7x50 
> • Field view angle: 6.6°
> • Field of view: 116m at 1000m
> Up to 20% Off!
> 
>   
> WaterSport Marine Binocular
> 7 x 50 Waterproof & Fogproof
> • Waterproof/fogproof 
> • Nitrogen filled 
> • Center focus 
> • BAK 4 prisms 
> • Retained lens caps 
> Up to 20% Off!
> Fisheries Supply Gift Card
> The Perfect Gift for the Boat Owner!
> Fisheries Supply has something for everyone. Our handsome, water droplet 
> design is sure to turn heads and brighten any boaters day. We can send gift 
> cards to you, or mail them directly to your friends and family. They never 
> expire and no service fees will ever be charged when purchasing or using a 
> Fisheries Supply gift card.
> 
> 
>   
> You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website, at our 
> store, or at one of our sponsored events. If you wish to no longer receive 
> these emails, you can always unsubscribe.
> Fisheries Supply 1900 N Northlake Way, Seattle, WA 98103 800.426.6930 
> fisheriessupply.com
> © Copyright Fisheries Supply 2013. All rights reserved.
> 

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-- 
Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C&C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC
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Re: Stus-List BinocularS

[Don Harben]

... but I really just need to spot any cows on the foredeck ... and then to see 
through them ...  



>
> From: Rich Knowles 
>To: cnc-list Cnc-List  
>Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 12:34:15 PM
>Subject: Re: Stus-List BinocularS
> 
>
>
>Geez, Jim, any binoculars that can spot flying reindeer have gotta be great! 
>They are not easy to see.
>
>
>Rich___
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Re: Stus-List Impeller change - thanks

[RAYMOND SHIBE]

Store used impellers in a used mayonnaise jar with olive oil. They will 
be lubricated for
installation in the spring and will not have a set as a result of 
spending the winter in the pump.
This not an original idea on my part, it came from a Yanmar maintenance 
seminar.

Ray Shibe
1984 C&C41  with a Yanmar 3HM

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Re: Stus-List BinocularS

[Rich Knowles]

I guess you need the "Hey Diddle Diddle" jobbies, but they are not waterproof. 

Rich

> On Dec 9, 2013, at 13:44, Don Harben  wrote:
> 
> ... but I really just need to spot any cows on the foredeck ... and then to 
> see through them ...  
> 
> From: Rich Knowles 
> To: cnc-list Cnc-List  
> Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 12:34:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Stus-List BinocularS
> 
> Geez, Jim, any binoculars that can spot flying reindeer have gotta be great! 
> They are not easy to see.
> 
> Rich
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
> http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
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Stus-List Bowsprit/assym

[TOM VINCENT]

It should be very obvious to the group, there are advantages and disadvantages 
to flying an asymmetrical shute. I have been racing with an asym for 5 years 
and have learned that when the next mark is dead down wind - you need to fall 
off and gybe. The boats with the regular shutes will eat you alive if you try 
to go it their way. I have done wing to wing on several occasions when the mark 
was fairly close. My asymmetrical was cut by JSI in Florida and they did a 
great job, it has a 180 percent girth with 1090 sq. ft.. One of the advantages 
is when the wind is on the beam or forward of it, the sail will having you 
moving through the fleet. I have the tack running to the anchor bow roller with 
a snap shackle, I can haul in the tack very tight when pointing. When cruising 
short handed, I have an ATN sock.
 
Tom
Frolic II, 36' cb
Chesapeake City, MD
 
 

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Re: Stus-List Bowsprit/assym

[dwight]

Tom

 

You wrote

 

when the wind is on the beam or forward of it, the sail will having you
moving through the fleet

 

I think this depends on wind strength.maybe true in very light air but I
believe all things otherwise being equal a good light #1 would be hard to
roll over in anything but the lightest winds and the deepest wind angles

 

 

 

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of TOM
VINCENT
Sent: December 9, 2013 2:53 PM
To: C&C Forum
Subject: Stus-List Bowsprit/assym

 

It should be very obvious to the group, there are advantages and
disadvantages to flying an asymmetrical shute. I have been racing with an
asym for 5 years and have learned that when the next mark is dead down wind
- you need to fall off and gybe. The boats with the regular shutes will eat
you alive if you try to go it their way. I have done wing to wing on several
occasions when the mark was fairly close. My asymmetrical was cut by JSI in
Florida and they did a great job, it has a 180 percent girth with 1090 sq.
ft.. One of the advantages is when the wind is on the beam or forward of it,
the sail will having you moving through the fleet. I have the tack running
to the anchor bow roller with a snap shackle, I can haul in the tack very
tight when pointing. When cruising short handed, I have an ATN sock.
 
Tom
Frolic II, 36' cb
Chesapeake City, MD
 
 

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3658/6403 - Release Date: 12/09/13

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Re: Stus-List Impeller change - thanks

[Curtis]

Well I heard of penutbutter but not oil?


On 12/9/13, RAYMOND SHIBE  wrote:
>
> Store used impellers in a used mayonnaise jar with olive oil. They will
> be lubricated for
> installation in the spring and will not have a set as a result of
> spending the winter in the pump.
> This not an original idea on my part, it came from a Yanmar maintenance
> seminar.
> Ray Shibe
> 1984 C&C41  with a Yanmar 3HM
>
>


-- 
“Sailors, with their built in sense of order, service and discipline,
should really be running the world.” - Nicholas Monsarrat

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Re: Stus-List Bowsprit/Asym

[Bill Coleman]

Try tacking an Asym in front of your stay on Lake Erie and you get a severe
caning !

11.6.2 Asymmetrical Spinnakers:
Asymmetrical spinnakers shall have the following characteristics:
11.6.2.1 Area no greater than a symmetrical spinnaker;
11.6.2.2 Luff and leech of unequal lengths where SLU/SLE ≥ 1.1
11.6.2.3 (SLU+SLE) / 2 ≤ 0.95 * √ (I2 +(the greater of J or SPL)2)
11.6.2.4 If the tack point is forward of the forestay, it must be reported
and appropriate penalties shall
apply (ref Spinnaker pole length penalties)
11.6.2.5 Adjustable leach lines are permitted in spinnakers, but may not
adjusted while racing.
11.6.2.6 ASMG is between 1.6 and 1.8 times the greater of J or SPL, and >=
75% of the foot length of the
sail where:
-ASMG - Asymmetrical Spinnaker Mid Girth - the distance between the
midpoints of luff and
leech measured in the shortest path on the surface of the sail.
-SF - foot length of spinnaker or asymmetrical spinnaker measured in a
straight line from clew to
clew or tack to clew

Bill Coleman
C&C 39  


_
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Shelquist
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 12:04 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bowsprit/Asym


Mike, Bill �C 
Here’s an excerpt I was given from LMPHRF:


 Handicapping Spinnakers 2009 
*   Both symmetrical and asymmetrical spinnakers are allowed and both
may be used while racing. 
*   LMPHRF assumes spinnakers are tacked to a spinnaker pole, prod,
bowsprit or are tacked to the centerline at the stem. 
*   A spinnaker may be tacked up to a maximum of 12” in front of the
stem on a bowsprit without penalty. Using a symmetrical or an asymmetrical
spinnaker falling within measured dimensions provides for no penalty. A
distance handicap penalty of �\3 sec/nm may be assessed. 
*   Basic dimensions for an asymmetrical spinnaker are such that the mid
girth is greater than or equal to 55% up to 75% of the foot for a code 0
sail. If over 75% of the foot, the area of the sail cannot exceed the area
of largest symmetric spinnaker. 
*   When an asymmetrical spinnaker is the only spinnaker and is attached
to a prod/sprit, it may be 125% �\ 135% of the area of the symmetrical
spinnaker without penalty. A �\3 sec/nm distance handicap penalty may be
assessed. 
*   When both an asymmetrical spinnaker on a prod/sprit is used with
symmetric spinnakers on a pole while racing, a �\3 or �\6 sec/nm penalty may
be is assessed on a case by case basis. A �\3 sec/nm penalty is assessed for
each 6% or fraction thereof exceeding any production standard. 
*   Headsails that are under 55% of the foot at midgirth are jibs and
over 55% are spinnakers (ORCi 2009 rules). 
*   Headsails are commonly referred to as Code 0 spinnakers if they fall
between 55% and 75% of the foot at midgirth. Code 0 sails must be declared
and may be penalized on a case�\by�\case basis because they can provide a
significant advantage for some boats that use them, defeating the intent of
the US PHRF and LMPHRF Rules. 
*   Typical penalties are �\3 sec/nm for a masthead rig with a 155% LP
Genoa and �\6 to �\9 sec/nm for a fractional rig with a masthead spinnaker
and 107% LP jib. Penalties vary with the actual rig and how the sail is set
while racing. 




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Coleman
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 9:58 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bowsprit/Asym

Ditto, I was thinking of adding a long bow roller for this  hoping no one
would notice, 8^ )  but when brought up b4 PHRFLE I think they said it would
be their standard 6 sec.

Bill Coleman
C&C 39  << File: ATT08267.txt >> 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Hoyt,
Mike
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 10:29 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Bowsprit/Asym

Eric
 
CAn you send to me or list a link to your PHRF area rule on this?  We are
looking at this question in Nova Scotia where it is not currently well
defined.
 
Mike


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Baumes
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 10:08 AM
To: cc-3...@googlegroups.com; cnc-list
Subject: Stus-List Bowsprit/Asym
Hi all, 

My winter project this year is to install a deck mounted bowsprit and fly an
asymmetric spinnaker while racing.

I am going for the max length with out a PHRF penalty, which in our YRA is
24% of J. This will give me a sprit that is 42.6 inches.

This decision is driven by a couple things. First, the ability to get 7 or
more experienced crew to manage the Symmetrical spinnaker. And to reduce the
overall complexity in sailing the boat. 

I am wondering if any one else has made this switch and what their
experience has been.

I will certainly share my experience.

Best,

Eric

C&C 34/36


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