Re: is intellij idea a good ide for clojure development?

[Mark]

Ok,  then you consider Stallman's philosophy unethical since it considers 
the philosophy of distributing close-source unethical.You should 
probably understand Stallman's position on other things and how he's 
behaved in regards to other projects (glibc, GCC, Gnome) to really 
understand his position.  Hint, it's just as much about Stallman, as it is 
about any concern he has about "defending users rights".

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:18:08 PM UTC-5, Cedric Greevey wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 5:47 AM, Mark  >wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, July 26, 2013 2:23:33 PM UTC-5, Andy Fingerhut wrote:
>>>
>>> There are many who agree with Richard Stallman that it is unethical to 
>>> distribute software without the source code.
>>>
>>
>> And there are many who think it's unethical to have a philosophy that 
>> it's unethical to distribute software without the source code.
>>
>
> And there are many who think it's unethical to consider merely having a 
> philosophy to be, in and of itself, unethical ... including everyone who 
> signed the Bill of Rights.
>
>

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Re: Interest in a commercial IDE for Clojure?

[Mark]

I think you get more bang for the buck if you start off with Intellij's 
open source community edition.  

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 6:12:06 PM UTC-5, Frank Hale wrote:
>
> Hanging off the last couple comments on extracting IntelliJ's components 
> which I think is quite interesting; Has anyone considered forking Jedit and 
> using that as a basis for a Clojure development environment? It has a 
> pretty darned good editor widget with the requisite syntax highlighting and 
> the ability to extend the languages it can highlight among other things. 
> I'm pretty sure it's scriptable as I recall seeing commentary on Jython and 
> Beanshell in association with it. Perhaps this could be extended to provide 
> a Clojure scripting solution but I don't know. 
>
> http://jedit.org/
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Colin Fleming 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> On a side note, I would love to see intellij's widget library broken out 
>>> in a more stand-alone way, so we can develop sexy clojure apps with pure 
>>> jvm technology. Any thoughts on if that is technically doable?
>>
>>
>> Depending on the widgets you're referring to, probably. It's just Swing 
>> after all, and it's all open source. More complicated parts like the editor 
>> component are probably impossible to extract since they're tied to all the 
>> internal infrastructure. But most of their dialogs, popups etc could 
>> probably be extracted, although I'm no Swing guru - there may be problems I 
>> haven't considered.
>>  
>>
>>
>> On 28 July 2013 07:20, kovas boguta >wrote:
>>
>>> My suggestion: release as open source, and then try a kickstarter to see 
>>> if there is interest in extending/continuing the project.
>>>
>>> IDE is a tough business. It has broken many. After all there is a reason 
>>> intellij open-sourced the core in the first place.
>>>
>>> Frankly I think there is a bigger market in using clojure to develop 
>>> better tools for other languages. If you have a nice intellij wrapper, then 
>>> you have a huge advantage in developing tooling in general. 
>>>
>>> On a side note, I would love to see intellij's widget library broken out 
>>> in a more stand-alone way, so we can develop sexy clojure apps with pure 
>>> jvm technology. Any thoughts on if that is technically doable?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Colin Fleming 
>>> 
>>> > wrote:
>>>
 Hi all,

 I was planning to wait a little longer before going public, but since 
 it's pretty relevant to the other IntelliJ thread going on at the moment I 
 thought I'd jump in. For the last couple of months of happy unemployment 
 I've been working on a fork of La Clojure which is now about 70% migrated 
 to Clojure and significantly improved. It's a lot of work to develop a 
 tool 
 like this, and one of the options I'm considering is starting a company to 
 develop it as a commercial product - JetBrains have never maintained 
 development of La Clojure very actively. I've been doing a little market 
 research but there's really not much data around about whether there are 
 enough people working with Clojure to sustain a product like that, and 
 also 
 the community is currently very focused on open source.

 One problem is that the IDE space is already fairly fractured - there's 
 Emacs and CCW, Clooj, Sublime Text and the promise of Light Table at some 
 point, and of course the current public version of La Clojure. But there's 
 still not a great option for something that's powerful but easy to use - 
 CCW is probably the closest thing to this right now. However I think it's 
 telling that a large fraction of people in the State of Clojure 2012 
 survey 
 still identified development tools as a major pain point.

 I think that the IntelliJ platform is a fantastic base to build 
 something like this on. Clojure as a language makes it pretty challenging 
 to develop a lot of the great functionality that JetBrains are famous for, 
 but I think there's scope to do a lot of great things. Certainly for mixed 
 Clojure/Java projects it would be difficult to beat, but even for Clojure 
 only projects I can imagine a lot of fantastic functionality built on 
 their 
 infrastructure. My plan would be to release a standalone IDE and a plugin 
 for people using IntelliJ Ultimate for web dev, Ruby/Python or whatever. 
 Since it's mostly Clojure now (and I'm migrating what's left as I get to 
 it) there's a real possibility of a Clojure plugin/extension API. I 
 envision charging PyCharm/RubyMine type prices, say $200 for company 
 licenses or $100 for individual developers.

 So, I'd love to hear what people think. I'd appreciate it if we could 
 stay away from the politics of open source vs proprietary - several people 
 have told me privately that they'd rather use OSS and that's fine, 
 proprietary is

Re: is intellij idea a good ide for clojure development?

[Cedric Greevey]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Mark  wrote:

> Ok,  then you consider Stallman's philosophy unethical since it considers
> the philosophy of distributing close-source unethical.


No, that would only be if he considered it unethical for someone to
disagree with him, rather than unethical for someone to distribute closed
source software.


>You should probably understand Stallman's position
>

This from someone on the same side that called Stallman, who appears to be
a right-libertarian, a "socialist"?!

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Pair programming session on EuroClojure Conference

[Sebastian Hennebrueder]

Hello,

I came up with an idea for the EuroClojure conference in Berlin in October 
this year.

A session where senior Clojure people do pair programming with other people 
to share experience on tool usage, coding, testing etc.

What do you think about the idea, and are there a couple of senior people 
around who would like to join.

Best Regards / Viele Grüße

Sebastian

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Re: Pair programming session on EuroClojure Conference

[Manuel Paccagnella]

Hello Sebastian,

I think it's a fantastic idea. The only problem that I see is: there will 
be enough senior Clojure developers?

Best Regards,
Manuel

Il giorno domenica 28 luglio 2013 14:31:18 UTC+2, Sebastian Hennebrueder ha 
scritto:
>
> Hello,
>
> I came up with an idea for the EuroClojure conference in Berlin in October 
> this year.
>
> A session where senior Clojure people do pair programming with other 
> people to share experience on tool usage, coding, testing etc.
>
> What do you think about the idea, and are there a couple of senior people 
> around who would like to join.
>
> Best Regards / Viele Grüße
>
> Sebastian
>

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Re: Pair programming session on EuroClojure Conference

[Chris Ford]

Seniority is relative. All you need to be able to teach someone is maybe a
year's more experience than them.

If you had the time to dedicate to this idea, some kind of structured "jam"
could be useful. At LambdaJam this month, each afternoon we had a puzzle of
some kind (spelling correction etc) to work on. Having an instruction sheet
and a git repo in advance helps to reduce the amount of time messing around
getting started.

Cheers,

Chris


On 28 July 2013 18:22, Manuel Paccagnella wrote:

> Hello Sebastian,
>
> I think it's a fantastic idea. The only problem that I see is: there will
> be enough senior Clojure developers?
>
> Best Regards,
> Manuel
>
> Il giorno domenica 28 luglio 2013 14:31:18 UTC+2, Sebastian Hennebrueder
> ha scritto:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I came up with an idea for the EuroClojure conference in Berlin in
>> October this year.
>>
>> A session where senior Clojure people do pair programming with other
>> people to share experience on tool usage, coding, testing etc.
>>
>> What do you think about the idea, and are there a couple of senior people
>> around who would like to join.
>>
>> Best Regards / Viele Grüße
>>
>> Sebastian
>>
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Re: Interest in a commercial IDE for Clojure?

[Greg]

Korny,

I think there were multiple posts from me on that day.

This is the one: 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/fWOZ9AJzBtU/djhcj4nYVxgJ

Cheers!
Greg

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On Jul 28, 2013, at 1:28 AM, Korny Sietsma  wrote:

> >* jump-to-symbol-definition
> > - see my post on ST2 in the "is intellij idea a >good idea" thread 
> > dated July 25th.
> 
> I checked that post and couldn't see anything about jump to symbol - I'm 
> mobile though so may have missed something. Can ST2 or 3 do this?
> 
> - Korny 
> On 28 Jul 2013 04:45, "Greg"  wrote:
> Steven:
> 
> ST2 has the following features that you wanted:
> 
> * paredit or better
>   - https://github.com/odyssomay/paredit
> * keyboard shortcuts that dont kill my wrists/pinkies/fingers
>   - you can make whatever shortcuts you want
> * jump-to-symbol-definition
>   - see my post on ST2 in the "is intellij idea a good idea" thread dated 
> July 25th.
> * jump-to-file
>   - the built-in "goto anything" works for that, and there are 
> file-specific plugins too
> * tabs (a la macvim)
>   - not sure what you mean, but there a plugin called "Lispindent" that 
> works great
> * splits (a la emacs)
>   - not sure what you mean, but there's a "Split Into Lines" command
> * magit or better (might be willing to ignore this omission though)
>   - Use these 3 plugins together: GitGutter, Side Bar Git, and SublimeGit
> * not-super-bloated UI
>   - ST fits this definition perfectly
> * themeable (dont care if it has a good theme, i can make one if need be, i 
> just need it to be themeable)
>   - ST is themeable (see my post in the other thread on July 25th)
> * something like nrepl.el
>   - ST has SublimeREPL, which has a fork that works with nREPL. Link in 
> the other thread.
> 
> So looks like you're pretty much covered by ST already. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Greg
> 
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing 
> with the NSA.
> 
> On Jul 27, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Steven Degutis  wrote:
> 
>> I would be willing to pay /really/ good money for an editor that has a few 
>> features:
>> 
>> * paredit or better
>> * proper syntax highlighting of clojure (emacs rocks at this, ST2 sucks at 
>> it)
>> * ST2-quality fuzzy matching at every completionable prompt (emacs's 
>> ido-mode is alright but ST2's is way better)
>> * keyboard shortcuts that dont kill my wrists/pinkies/fingers
>> * jump-to-symbol-definition
>> * jump-to-file
>> * tabs (a la macvim)
>> * splits (a la emacs)
>> * magit or better (might be willing to ignore this omission though)
>> * not-super-bloated UI
>> * themeable (dont care if it has a good theme, i can make one if need be, i 
>> just need it to be themeable)
>> * something like nrepl.el
>> 
>> (where ST2 means Sublime Text 2)
>> 
>> That's *all* I care about, nothing else matters to me. But no editor can get 
>> *all* these things right.
>> 
>> -Steven
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Colin Fleming  
>> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I was planning to wait a little longer before going public, but since it's 
>> pretty relevant to the other IntelliJ thread going on at the moment I 
>> thought I'd jump in. For the last couple of months of happy unemployment 
>> I've been working on a fork of La Clojure which is now about 70% migrated to 
>> Clojure and significantly improved. It's a lot of work to develop a tool 
>> like this, and one of the options I'm considering is starting a company to 
>> develop it as a commercial product - JetBrains have never maintained 
>> development of La Clojure very actively. I've been doing a little market 
>> research but there's really not much data around about whether there are 
>> enough people working with Clojure to sustain a product like that, and also 
>> the community is currently very focused on open source.
>> 
>> One problem is that the IDE space is already fairly fractured - there's 
>> Emacs and CCW, Clooj, Sublime Text and the promise of Light Table at some 
>> point, and of course the current public version of La Clojure. But there's 
>> still not a great option for something that's powerful but easy to use - CCW 
>> is probably the closest thing to this right now. However I think it's 
>> telling that a large fraction of people in the State of Clojure 2012 survey 
>> still identified development tools as a major pain point.
>> 
>> I think that the IntelliJ platform is a fantastic base to build something 
>> like this on. Clojure as a language makes it pretty challenging to develop a 
>> lot of the great functionality that JetBrains are famous for, but I think 
>> there's scope to do a lot of great things. Certainly for mixed Clojure/Java 
>> projects it would be difficult to beat, but even for Clojure only projects I 
>> can imagine a lot of fantastic functionality built on their infrastructure. 
>> My plan would be to release a standalone IDE a

Re: Can't seem to import namespaces of test.generative

[Jeremy Heiler]

The answer to this question can be found here: 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17904061/cant-seem-to-import-namespaces-of-test-generative

In summary, version 0.1.4 doesn't have these namespaces. The solution is to use 
0.1.5 or newer.

Ultimately, it seems like the test.generative README is outdated.

On July 27, 2013 at 4:01:16 PM, Stephen Cagle (same...@gmail.com) wrote:

So, I was having trouble requiring some namespaces in test.generative . I have 
the following project.clj

(defproject gen "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT"
  :description "FIXME: write description"
  :url "http://example.com/FIXME";
  :license {:name "Eclipse Public License"
            :url "http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html"}
  :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.5.1"]
                             [org.clojure/test.generative "0.1.4"]])


stephen@stephen-ubuntu:~/Work/gen$ rm -r ../../.m2/
stephen@stephen-ubuntu:~/Work/gen$ lein deps
Retrieving lein-pprint/lein-pprint/1.1.1/lein-pprint-1.1.1.pom from clojars
Retrieving lein-marginalia/lein-marginalia/0.7.1/lein-marginalia-0.7.1.pom from 
clojars
Retrieving marginalia/marginalia/0.7.1/marginalia-0.7.1.pom from clojars
Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.4.0/clojure-1.4.0.pom from central
Retrieving org/sonatype/oss/oss-parent/5/oss-parent-5.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/tools.namespace/0.1.1/tools.namespace-0.1.1.pom from 
central
Retrieving org/clojure/pom.contrib/0.0.20/pom.contrib-0.0.20.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/java.classpath/0.1.1/java.classpath-0.1.1.pom from 
central
Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.3.0-alpha5/clojure-1.3.0-alpha5.pom from 
central
Retrieving org/clojure/tools.cli/0.2.1/tools.cli-0.2.1.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/pom.contrib/0.0.25/pom.contrib-0.0.25.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.3.0/clojure-1.3.0.pom from central
Retrieving org/markdownj/markdownj/0.3.0-1.0.2b4/markdownj-0.3.0-1.0.2b4.pom 
from central
Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.4.0/clojure-1.4.0.jar from central
Retrieving org/clojure/tools.namespace/0.1.1/tools.namespace-0.1.1.jar from 
central
Retrieving org/clojure/java.classpath/0.1.1/java.classpath-0.1.1.jar from 
central
Retrieving org/markdownj/markdownj/0.3.0-1.0.2b4/markdownj-0.3.0-1.0.2b4.jar 
from central
Retrieving org/clojure/tools.cli/0.2.1/tools.cli-0.2.1.jar from central
Retrieving lein-marginalia/lein-marginalia/0.7.1/lein-marginalia-0.7.1.jar from 
clojars
Retrieving lein-pprint/lein-pprint/1.1.1/lein-pprint-1.1.1.jar from clojars
Retrieving marginalia/marginalia/0.7.1/marginalia-0.7.1.jar from clojars
Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.5.1/clojure-1.5.1.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/test.generative/0.1.4/test.generative-0.1.4.pom from 
central
Retrieving org/clojure/pom.contrib/0.0.23/pom.contrib-0.0.23.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.3.0-beta1/clojure-1.3.0-beta1.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/tools.nrepl/0.2.3/tools.nrepl-0.2.3.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/pom.contrib/0.1.2/pom.contrib-0.1.2.pom from central
Retrieving org/sonatype/oss/oss-parent/7/oss-parent-7.pom from central
Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.2.0/clojure-1.2.0.pom from central
Retrieving clojure-complete/clojure-complete/0.2.3/clojure-complete-0.2.3.pom 
from clojars
Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.5.1/clojure-1.5.1.jar from central
Retrieving org/clojure/tools.nrepl/0.2.3/tools.nrepl-0.2.3.jar from central
Retrieving org/clojure/test.generative/0.1.4/test.generative-0.1.4.jar from 
central
Retrieving clojure-complete/clojure-complete/0.2.3/clojure-complete-0.2.3.jar 
from clojars
stephen@stephen-ubuntu:~/Work/gen$ lein repl
nREPL server started on port 36954
REPL-y 0.2.0
Clojure 1.5.1
    Docs: (doc function-name-here)
          (find-doc "part-of-name-here")
  Source: (source function-name-here)
 Javadoc: (javadoc java-object-or-class-here)
    Exit: Control+D or (exit) or (quit)

user=> (require '[clojure.test.generative.runner :as runner])

FileNotFoundException Could not locate 
clojure/test/generative/runner__init.class or 
clojure/test/generative/runner.clj on classpath:   clojure.lang.RT.load 
(RT.java:443)
user=> (require '[clojure.test.generative :as gen])
nil

Seems that I can require clojure.test.generative but not 
clojure.test.generative.runner . What am I doing wrong?
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Re: help actually changing :use to :require :refer :all?

[Phil Hagelberg]

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:46:06 PM UTC-7, Alex Baranosky wrote:
 > On our work projects at Runa, we have an unwritten code standard of 
always
>  writing out the full namespace, and not using shortcuts as you suggest. 
 The
> reason being that it can be very hard to search for usages of a namespace 
if
> you don't fully qualify them, which makes refactoring a nightmare on 
projects with
> 250+ namespaces.
 
I agree that using a shared prefix as in the original question is an 
antipattern.

Maybe things would be different if we had a reliable "find usages" library, 
but as it is now
currently we're stuck relying on grep. The shared-prefix style makes it 
difficult
to find things.

-Phil

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How to set up a Clojure nREPL using Vim & Fireplace

[Joe Cooljure]

One of the cool things about using Clojure is being able to evaluate code 
interactively in the read-eval-print-loop (REPL).  The  vim-fireplace 
project  on GitHub (aka Foreplay) 
is the newest & best way to accomplish this from within the Vim/GVim 
editor, so you don't even have to switch windows to copy/paste code like 
you would with the normal "lein repl" command.


I recently installed Fedora 18 and was trying to get everything configured 
for Vim+Fireplace when I got stuck.  Fortunately Google & StackOverflow 
lead me to a very nice 
article from 
boxuk.com that helped to clear up the sticking points.  I've also copied 
the post 
here
 in 
case the original ever disappears from the web.  Enjoy!


Joe


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Re: How to set up a Clojure nREPL using Vim & Fireplace

[Chris Ford]

If you don't regularly use vim, and you want a pre-canned Clojure setup,
you can try https://github.com/ctford/vim-fireplace-easy, which is a
project of Dave Ray's I updated for Fireplace.

Cheers,

Chris


On 28 July 2013 22:29, Joe Cooljure  wrote:

> One of the cool things about using Clojure is being able to evaluate code
> interactively in the read-eval-print-loop (REPL).  The  vim-fireplace
> project  on GitHub (aka Foreplay)
> is the newest & best way to accomplish this from within the Vim/GVim
> editor, so you don't even have to switch windows to copy/paste code like
> you would with the normal "lein repl" command.
>
>
> I recently installed Fedora 18 and was trying to get everything configured
> for Vim+Fireplace when I got stuck.  Fortunately Google & StackOverflow
> lead me to a very nice 
> article from
> boxuk.com that helped to clear up the sticking points.  I've also copied
> the post 
> here
>  in
> case the original ever disappears from the web.  Enjoy!
>
>
> Joe
>
>
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Re: is intellij idea a good ide for clojure development?

[Matt Hoffman]

>
> To be honest, I can't wait until we have something like that for Clojure.
> Give me a fast, light, InteliJ based IDE that "just works" 100% of the
> time, and I'd pay several hundred dollars for that software.


+1 to this.

I've used IntelliJ for years for Java, Javascript, HTML, SQL, ...
development. I've tried Eclipse about once a year for the last several
years, but I still prefer IntelliJ. A lot of that is personal preference
and what I'm used to.

But for Clojure development, I find that I prefer Emacs if I'm doing only
doing Clojure development and Intellij for mixed Java/Clojure development.
I still really like IntelliJ as an editor, but prefer Emacs for Clojure. I
also look forward to the day when I'll be able to use one tool for both.

I didn't know Emacs before starting Clojure, and the learning curve is
definitely steep, but I'm familiar with Vim, so Emacs + Evil mode has made
it a lot easier.

Here's some Emacs-like things in IntelliJ that I like (and Emacs users may
not know about):


- IntelliJ's interface can be scaled back to look like a text editor (see
http://confluence.jetbrains.com/display/IntelliJIDEA/User+Interface). Very
clean and uncluttered.

  -  it now has a dark theme now, which I prefer. Minor thing, but being
able to customize the UI is one of those small things that makes a small
but ongoing difference.

- It has a key sequence that opens up a "run this action by name" much like
Emacs' M-x. I use that a lot.

- Keybindings are infinitely customizable.


And unlike Emacs, it's Java integration is first-rate.


Here's some things in Emacs that I wish IntelliJ had:


- IntelliJ's has only a very loose approximation of paredit. Emacs is miles
ahead.

- IntelliJ's REPL cannot connect to a running nrepl server, which is a huge
pain for me. There are some branches of the La Clojure plugins that look
like they may address this, but they haven't had a release for a while now.
 Definitely not CCW levels of activity (Larent, are you sure you don't want
to work on IntelliJ? :) ) .

- Emacs is obviously far better over a remote connection of any kind, since
it's fundamentally text-based and works over an SSH connection. IntelliJ
doesn't even work well over a VNC/NX connection because of how it redraws
the screen (although there are some settings that may help with this). And
since IntelliJ's REPL can't connect to a remote nrepl server, you're out of
luck when working with a remote machine.

- That makes pairing with Emacs much easier, if both people happen to
know Emacs.

- Emacs gives the impression of being easier to customize.

- that's *mostly* an intangible thing -- I don't know elisp well enough
to write much, but I know where to start if I wanted to. And as Phil said,
it's "low friction."

IntelliJ plugins, on the other hand, have a much higher barrier to entry,
so if I want behavior that doesn't happen to be available via a checkbox
I'm less likely to try adding it. Now, if IntelliJ's Clojure plugin had a
Clojure interface into its runtime, so that I could make changes via a
REPL, I think that'd be a killer feature...


I keep saying I'll try Eclipse again, since it has *much* better Clojure
support than IntelliJ (thanks to Laurent) and it's still a decent Java
environment, but I haven't tried it in a while. Certainly not since the
Kepler release. I'm going to check out Laurent's link above.

- matt




On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Timothy Baldridge wrote:

> +1 to Charlie. If I ever went back to Python development I would plop down
> whatever the going rate is for PyCharm (InteliJ Python IDE), that thing is
> an awesome piece of tech. There are very few times I've been utterly blown
> away by an idea all the standard features of Python (testing, debugging,
> code coverage, project structure, etc) are defaults in PyCharm. It even
> detects multiple versions of Python on your system and adds them to the
> intelisense and run menus.
>
> To be honest, I can't wait until we have something like that for Clojure.
> Give me a fast, light, InteliJ based IDE that "just works" 100% of the
> time, and I'd pay several hundred dollars for that software.
>
> Timothy
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Charlie Griefer <
> charlie.grie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 25, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Cedric Greevey  wrote:
>>
>> Someone makes free software plugins for nonfree software?!
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Greg  wrote:
>>
>>> You submit patches to nonfree software?!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I may regret asking this… but don't people deserve to get paid for their
>> work? I mean if they choose to charge (I'm not putting down the free model
>> at all)?
>>
>> And at $70 for ST 2, well as a developer I use an editor pretty
>> frequently. I'm thinking that at $70, if I find the software helps me be
>> productive, then it pretty much pays for itself some time during the first
>> day.
>>
>>  --
>> Charlie Griefer
>> http://charlie.griefer.com
>>
>> "Giv

Re: is intellij idea a good ide for clojure development?

[Laurent PETIT]

2013/7/28 Matt Hoffman :
>> To be honest, I can't wait until we have something like that for Clojure.
>> Give me a fast, light, InteliJ based IDE that "just works" 100% of the time,
>> and I'd pay several hundred dollars for that software.
>
>
> +1 to this.
>
> I've used IntelliJ for years for Java, Javascript, HTML, SQL, ...
> development. I've tried Eclipse about once a year for the last several
> years, but I still prefer IntelliJ. A lot of that is personal preference and
> what I'm used to.
>
> But for Clojure development, I find that I prefer Emacs if I'm doing only
> doing Clojure development and Intellij for mixed Java/Clojure development. I
> still really like IntelliJ as an editor, but prefer Emacs for Clojure. I
> also look forward to the day when I'll be able to use one tool for both.
>
> I didn't know Emacs before starting Clojure, and the learning curve is
> definitely steep, but I'm familiar with Vim, so Emacs + Evil mode has made
> it a lot easier.
>
> Here's some Emacs-like things in IntelliJ that I like (and Emacs users may
> not know about):
>
>
> - IntelliJ's interface can be scaled back to look like a text editor (see
> http://confluence.jetbrains.com/display/IntelliJIDEA/User+Interface). Very
> clean and uncluttered.
>
>   -  it now has a dark theme now, which I prefer. Minor thing, but being
> able to customize the UI is one of those small things that makes a small but
> ongoing difference.
>
> - It has a key sequence that opens up a "run this action by name" much like
> Emacs' M-x. I use that a lot.
>
> - Keybindings are infinitely customizable.
>
>
> And unlike Emacs, it's Java integration is first-rate.
>
>
> Here's some things in Emacs that I wish IntelliJ had:
>
>
> - IntelliJ's has only a very loose approximation of paredit. Emacs is miles
> ahead.
>
> - IntelliJ's REPL cannot connect to a running nrepl server, which is a huge
> pain for me. There are some branches of the La Clojure plugins that look
> like they may address this, but they haven't had a release for a while now.
> Definitely not CCW levels of activity (Larent, are you sure you don't want
> to work on IntelliJ? :) ) .

Hey, I've considered it in the past, for sure, and honestly even
recently, 2-3 months back.
But the fact is that now Colin has unveiled the premises of a good
follow-up of La Clojure, so there may be no need for that anymore ;-)
(and honestly, I couldn't work on both project given the time I can
devote to it right now - I wish I could ! - )

>
> - Emacs is obviously far better over a remote connection of any kind, since
> it's fundamentally text-based and works over an SSH connection. IntelliJ
> doesn't even work well over a VNC/NX connection because of how it redraws
> the screen (although there are some settings that may help with this). And
> since IntelliJ's REPL can't connect to a remote nrepl server, you're out of
> luck when working with a remote machine.
>
> - That makes pairing with Emacs much easier, if both people happen to
> know Emacs.
>
> - Emacs gives the impression of being easier to customize.
>
> - that's *mostly* an intangible thing -- I don't know elisp well enough
> to write much, but I know where to start if I wanted to. And as Phil said,
> it's "low friction."
>
> IntelliJ plugins, on the other hand, have a much higher barrier to entry, so
> if I want behavior that doesn't happen to be available via a checkbox I'm
> less likely to try adding it. Now, if IntelliJ's Clojure plugin had a
> Clojure interface into its runtime, so that I could make changes via a REPL,
> I think that'd be a killer feature...

That's also something I've started working on on "spare time". But
since Eclipse is still "absorbing" the move from the 3.x branch to the
4.x branch, I was letting some time for things to stabilize, and will
focus my efforts on the 4.x branch when it's more widely adopted, and
current works on the editor then finishing work on Leiningen 2 full
integration are done.

>
>
> I keep saying I'll try Eclipse again, since it has *much* better Clojure
> support than IntelliJ (thanks to Laurent) and it's still a decent Java
> environment, but I haven't tried it in a while. Certainly not since the
> Kepler release. I'm going to check out Laurent's link above.

I will release tonight a new beta version with support for "fix
indentation as you type" (e.g. when you move a form from column A to
column B, the dependent lines will follow, with the same column delta,
thus preserving manual indentation - think cond-like forms manual
indentation).

>
>
> - matt
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Timothy Baldridge 
> wrote:
>>
>> +1 to Charlie. If I ever went back to Python development I would plop down
>> whatever the going rate is for PyCharm (InteliJ Python IDE), that thing is
>> an awesome piece of tech. There are very few times I've been utterly blown
>> away by an idea all the standard features of Python (testing, debugging,
>> code coverage, project structure, etc) are defaul

Re: Interest in a commercial IDE for Clojure?

[Matt Hoffman]

I've been watching your fork on Github for a while -- I've been excited to
see that someone is actively working on La Clojure. I would pay for an
IntelliJ plugin that was significantly better than La Clojure, but I'm also
aware that I'd be paying just for my preference of IntelliJ over Eclipse
for mixed Java/Clojure development. For pure Clojure development, Emacs
would also be a contender. So that would be a really tough market.
It would be a tough sell for my company, as well. They pay for IntelliJ
Ultimate licenses, and if we told them we wanted to add in $200 more for a
Clojure plugin, I'd have to be prepared to re-open the "just use Eclipse"
argument.

I'd also contribute to a Kickstarter, if you decided to go that route. I
don't imagine you could make a living off of it that way, but you might be
able to recoup some of your time.  A couple of developers in my company
have talked about funding a bounty for nrepl integration alone.



On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 3:20 PM, kovas boguta wrote:

> My suggestion: release as open source, and then try a kickstarter to see
> if there is interest in extending/continuing the project.
>
> IDE is a tough business. It has broken many. After all there is a reason
> intellij open-sourced the core in the first place.
>
> Frankly I think there is a bigger market in using clojure to develop
> better tools for other languages. If you have a nice intellij wrapper, then
> you have a huge advantage in developing tooling in general.
>
> On a side note, I would love to see intellij's widget library broken out
> in a more stand-alone way, so we can develop sexy clojure apps with pure
> jvm technology. Any thoughts on if that is technically doable?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Colin Fleming <
> colin.mailingl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was planning to wait a little longer before going public, but since
>> it's pretty relevant to the other IntelliJ thread going on at the moment I
>> thought I'd jump in. For the last couple of months of happy unemployment
>> I've been working on a fork of La Clojure which is now about 70% migrated
>> to Clojure and significantly improved. It's a lot of work to develop a tool
>> like this, and one of the options I'm considering is starting a company to
>> develop it as a commercial product - JetBrains have never maintained
>> development of La Clojure very actively. I've been doing a little market
>> research but there's really not much data around about whether there are
>> enough people working with Clojure to sustain a product like that, and also
>> the community is currently very focused on open source.
>>
>> One problem is that the IDE space is already fairly fractured - there's
>> Emacs and CCW, Clooj, Sublime Text and the promise of Light Table at some
>> point, and of course the current public version of La Clojure. But there's
>> still not a great option for something that's powerful but easy to use -
>> CCW is probably the closest thing to this right now. However I think it's
>> telling that a large fraction of people in the State of Clojure 2012 survey
>> still identified development tools as a major pain point.
>>
>> I think that the IntelliJ platform is a fantastic base to build something
>> like this on. Clojure as a language makes it pretty challenging to develop
>> a lot of the great functionality that JetBrains are famous for, but I think
>> there's scope to do a lot of great things. Certainly for mixed Clojure/Java
>> projects it would be difficult to beat, but even for Clojure only projects
>> I can imagine a lot of fantastic functionality built on their
>> infrastructure. My plan would be to release a standalone IDE and a plugin
>> for people using IntelliJ Ultimate for web dev, Ruby/Python or whatever.
>> Since it's mostly Clojure now (and I'm migrating what's left as I get to
>> it) there's a real possibility of a Clojure plugin/extension API. I
>> envision charging PyCharm/RubyMine type prices, say $200 for company
>> licenses or $100 for individual developers.
>>
>> So, I'd love to hear what people think. I'd appreciate it if we could
>> stay away from the politics of open source vs proprietary - several people
>> have told me privately that they'd rather use OSS and that's fine,
>> proprietary isn't for everyone. What I'd like to know is if the idea is
>> appealing to many people here?
>>
>> In case it's a concern for anyone, I've discussed this with JetBrains.
>>
>> Thanks for any feedback,
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Colin
>>
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T-shirts?

[Isaac Wagner]

There was a discussion a while ago about stickers which led to 
http://clojure.org/swag. Could we get some sanctioned T-shirts as well? 
There are a few Clojure shirts on Zazzle, but what I would be interested in 
is some black, grey, and white shirts with nothing but a big Clojure logo 
on the front and I would love to buy them in a way that supports Clojure.

Isaac

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Re: is intellij idea a good ide for clojure development?

[Mark]

On Sunday, July 28, 2013 6:52:37 AM UTC-5, Cedric Greevey wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Mark  >wrote:
>
>> Ok,  then you consider Stallman's philosophy unethical since it considers 
>> the philosophy of distributing close-source unethical.
>
>
> No, that would only be if he considered it unethical for someone to 
> disagree with him, rather than unethical for someone to distribute closed 
> source software.
>

Stallman considers anybody that distributes closed-source software 
unethical.  There's no way to spin away from that fact.   

I always love this quote by Stallman:

"*Would it be ethical to steal lines of unfree code from companies like 
Microsoft and Oracle and use them to create a “free” version of that 
program?*

It would not be unethical, but it would not really work, since if Oracle 
ever found out, it would be able to suppress the use of that free software. 
The reason for my conclusion is that making a program proprietary *is* wrong. 
To liberate the code, if it is possible, would not be theft, any more than 
freeing a slave is theft (which is what the slave owner would surely call 
it)."

http://www.forbes.com/2006/03/21/gnu-gplv3-linux-cz_dl_0321stallman2.html

So Stallman spins "freeing code" with freeing slaves.  Obviously the guy 
has some ethical problems of his own.



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Re: is intellij idea a good ide for clojure development?

[Ben Wolfson]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Mark  wrote:

>
> So Stallman spins "freeing code" with freeing slaves.  Obviously the guy
> has some ethical problems of his own.
>
>
The claim that freeing something wrongly held isn't theft (in a moral
rather than legal sense), though the wrongful holder would call it theft,
isn't clearly problematic. You may think that Stallman is wrong that code
can be wrongly held, but that's independent of the analogies he draws.

-- 
Ben Wolfson
"Human kind has used its intelligence to vary the flavour of drinks, which
may be sweet, aromatic, fermented or spirit-based. ... Family and social
life also offer numerous other occasions to consume drinks for pleasure."
[Larousse, "Drink" entry]

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subseq, garbage collection, and finalize

[Brandon Bloom]

Hi all,

I'm trying to understand the object retention behavior when subseq is 
applied to sorted collections.

A quick glance at the source of 
APersistentTreeMap.java
 suggests 
that the reified subseq only contains pointers to nodes to the left or 
right of the initial value node. Assuming I'm reading correctly, that means 
subseq should never retain unaccessible nodes in the original sorted map or 
set.

Here's an experiment that seems to back that up:
https://gist.github.com/brandonbloom/6101597

This produces a few questions:

   1. Is my experiment good? 
   2. What is the cause of the "double" finalizations? It seems like every 
   object has an initial speculative finalize fail on it... Why?
   3. Am I correct in saying that subseq will never retain extra objects 
   from the original tree?

Thanks,
Brandon

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Re: is intellij idea a good ide for clojure development?

[Cedric Greevey]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Mark  wrote:

>
>
> On Sunday, July 28, 2013 6:52:37 AM UTC-5, Cedric Greevey wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Mark  wrote:
>>
>>> Ok,  then you consider Stallman's philosophy unethical since it
>>> considers the philosophy of distributing close-source unethical.
>>
>>
>> No, that would only be if he considered it unethical for someone to
>> disagree with him, rather than unethical for someone to distribute closed
>> source software.
>>
>
> Stallman considers anybody that distributes closed-source software
> unethical.  There's no way to spin away from that fact.
>

And that's exactly what I said. I don't think Stallman considers
"disagreeing with Stallman" to be unethical, though.

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Re: T-shirts?

[Alex Miller]

It may take me a couple weeks but I will see what I can do from the 
"sanctioned" camp.

Alex


On Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:22:21 PM UTC-5, Isaac Wagner wrote:
>
> There was a discussion a while ago about stickers which led to 
> http://clojure.org/swag. Could we get some sanctioned T-shirts as well? 
> There are a few Clojure shirts on Zazzle, but what I would be interested in 
> is some black, grey, and white shirts with nothing but a big Clojure logo 
> on the front and I would love to buy them in a way that supports Clojure.
>
> Isaac
>

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Re: subseq, garbage collection, and finalize

[Cedric Greevey]

It's almost never a good idea to use finalize. Basically, you should only
use finalize when you're holding native resources that need to be released
when your object is GC'd.

If you're using finalizers just to investigate when certain objects are
getting collected, you might want to use WeakReference and ReferenceQueue
for that instead.



On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Brandon Bloom wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to understand the object retention behavior when subseq is
> applied to sorted collections.
>
> A quick glance at the source of 
> APersistentTreeMap.java
>  suggests
> that the reified subseq only contains pointers to nodes to the left or
> right of the initial value node. Assuming I'm reading correctly, that means
> subseq should never retain unaccessible nodes in the original sorted map or
> set.
>
> Here's an experiment that seems to back that up:
> https://gist.github.com/brandonbloom/6101597
>
> This produces a few questions:
>
>1. Is my experiment good?
>2. What is the cause of the "double" finalizations? It seems like
>every object has an initial speculative finalize fail on it... Why?
>3. Am I correct in saying that subseq will never retain extra objects
>from the original tree?
>
> Thanks,
> Brandon
>
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Re: Interest in a commercial IDE for Clojure?

[Colin Fleming]

Thanks for the thoughts, Matt - I agree it's a tough market for all the
reasons you describe. It's unfortunate that companies that pay for an
Ultimate license would have to pay again for this when the
JetBrains-developed extra languages (Python, Ruby) come for free. There's
not much to be done unfortunately except just be better than everyone else
:-)


On 29 July 2013 09:07, Matt Hoffman  wrote:

> I've been watching your fork on Github for a while -- I've been excited to
> see that someone is actively working on La Clojure. I would pay for an
> IntelliJ plugin that was significantly better than La Clojure, but I'm also
> aware that I'd be paying just for my preference of IntelliJ over Eclipse
> for mixed Java/Clojure development. For pure Clojure development, Emacs
> would also be a contender. So that would be a really tough market.
> It would be a tough sell for my company, as well. They pay for IntelliJ
> Ultimate licenses, and if we told them we wanted to add in $200 more for a
> Clojure plugin, I'd have to be prepared to re-open the "just use Eclipse"
> argument.
>
> I'd also contribute to a Kickstarter, if you decided to go that route. I
> don't imagine you could make a living off of it that way, but you might be
> able to recoup some of your time.  A couple of developers in my company
> have talked about funding a bounty for nrepl integration alone.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 3:20 PM, kovas boguta wrote:
>
>> My suggestion: release as open source, and then try a kickstarter to see
>> if there is interest in extending/continuing the project.
>>
>> IDE is a tough business. It has broken many. After all there is a reason
>> intellij open-sourced the core in the first place.
>>
>> Frankly I think there is a bigger market in using clojure to develop
>> better tools for other languages. If you have a nice intellij wrapper, then
>> you have a huge advantage in developing tooling in general.
>>
>> On a side note, I would love to see intellij's widget library broken out
>> in a more stand-alone way, so we can develop sexy clojure apps with pure
>> jvm technology. Any thoughts on if that is technically doable?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:54 AM, Colin Fleming <
>> colin.mailingl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I was planning to wait a little longer before going public, but since
>>> it's pretty relevant to the other IntelliJ thread going on at the moment I
>>> thought I'd jump in. For the last couple of months of happy unemployment
>>> I've been working on a fork of La Clojure which is now about 70% migrated
>>> to Clojure and significantly improved. It's a lot of work to develop a tool
>>> like this, and one of the options I'm considering is starting a company to
>>> develop it as a commercial product - JetBrains have never maintained
>>> development of La Clojure very actively. I've been doing a little market
>>> research but there's really not much data around about whether there are
>>> enough people working with Clojure to sustain a product like that, and also
>>> the community is currently very focused on open source.
>>>
>>> One problem is that the IDE space is already fairly fractured - there's
>>> Emacs and CCW, Clooj, Sublime Text and the promise of Light Table at some
>>> point, and of course the current public version of La Clojure. But there's
>>> still not a great option for something that's powerful but easy to use -
>>> CCW is probably the closest thing to this right now. However I think it's
>>> telling that a large fraction of people in the State of Clojure 2012 survey
>>> still identified development tools as a major pain point.
>>>
>>> I think that the IntelliJ platform is a fantastic base to build
>>> something like this on. Clojure as a language makes it pretty challenging
>>> to develop a lot of the great functionality that JetBrains are famous for,
>>> but I think there's scope to do a lot of great things. Certainly for mixed
>>> Clojure/Java projects it would be difficult to beat, but even for Clojure
>>> only projects I can imagine a lot of fantastic functionality built on their
>>> infrastructure. My plan would be to release a standalone IDE and a plugin
>>> for people using IntelliJ Ultimate for web dev, Ruby/Python or whatever.
>>> Since it's mostly Clojure now (and I'm migrating what's left as I get to
>>> it) there's a real possibility of a Clojure plugin/extension API. I
>>> envision charging PyCharm/RubyMine type prices, say $200 for company
>>> licenses or $100 for individual developers.
>>>
>>> So, I'd love to hear what people think. I'd appreciate it if we could
>>> stay away from the politics of open source vs proprietary - several people
>>> have told me privately that they'd rather use OSS and that's fine,
>>> proprietary isn't for everyone. What I'd like to know is if the idea is
>>> appealing to many people here?
>>>
>>> In case it's a concern for anyone, I've discussed this with JetBrains.
>>>
>>> Thanks for any feedback,
>>>
>>>

Re: is intellij idea a good ide for clojure development?

[Mike]

On a related note (If I need to post this elsewhere, just let me know):

What do people use for ClojureCLR development?  If I *ever *get started, 
this is where I will need to be working.

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Yet Moare Hoare

[Alan Shaw]

The Philosophers are Dining at
https://github.com/nodename/async-plgd/blob/master/src/hoare/monitors.clj

Comments, criticisms, corrections are appreciated.

-A

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ANN Langohr 1.0 (final) is released

[Michael Klishin]

Langohr [1] is a small, easy to use Clojure client for RabbitMQ.

1.0.1 is a long overdue 1.0 release of the library that has been 2 years
in the making and is one of the most popular ClojureWerkz projects.

Release notes and some notes about future plans:
http://blog.clojurewerkz.org/blog/2013/07/29/langohr-1-dot-0-1-is-released/

1. http://clojurerabbitmq.info
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http://github.com/michaelklishin
http://twitter.com/michaelklishin

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