General Electric EF-140

[Bill Gunshannon]

I hope this is considered apporopriate for this list, if not, I am sure y'all 
will
let me know.  :-)

And, yes, it is about a truly classic computer.

I am trying to restore my 1961 General Electric EF-140 Analog Computer.  The
insulation on all of the wires has basicly turned to stick goo.  I would really 
like
to rebuild it.  Does anyone have or know where I might find a wiring diagram
for this box?  I got it thru National Technical Schools when I was about 11 
years
old and sadly, while it survived, my mother threw out all of the courses and
manuals that came with the correspondence course I took back then.

If someone has it but it's buried away, no problem.  I just loaned it for a
static display at the University where I used to work in the CS Department.
I expect they will want to keep it for at least the Semester.

On another note, it's good to be back  on the list after many years away.
I still have and use a number of systems that people here would consider
more in line with their notions of Classic Computers.  Some of you may
even remember me.  I was and still am big on PDP-11's and VAX.  But I
also have a number of old Micros as well (and some of the newer ones that
try to bring the old flavor back like the Maximite and The P112.)

bill

RE: RL02 version of UNIX6?

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Paul Koning 
[paulkon...@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 9:34 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: RL02 version of UNIX6?

> On Feb 1, 2017, at 9:30 PM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
>
>> From: Paul Koning
>
>> Yes, GCC should do that correctly. ... Dealing with the output might be
>> a nuisance ... You may need some post-processing to cast the output
>> into the syntax that V6 "as" expects.
>
> Actually, dealing with the _input_ is going to be a PITA (so my suggestion
> was, in retrospect, not really a plausible one). The problem is that V6 is
> written in an early dialect of C, one which I am sure would cause GCC would
> toss its cookies, if fed to it.
>
> Some things, like "a =+ b;" would be easy to fix; likewise "int a 1;" instead
> of "int a = 1;". But the Unix kernel is shot through with places where are
> int is used as a structure pointer, etc, without benefit of a cast (casts
> weren't invented until later). And a lot of stuff like that.

Yes, that would be an interesting issue.  One answer would be to write a new 
front end ("Old C").  That's probably more work than can easily be justified, 
though.

 __

What version of GCC is being used here? I thought they removed support
for the PDP-11 more than a deacde ago.

And, while I am at it, based on what people are saying here I assume they also
removed the switch for K&R mode.

bill

Macintosh Floppy

[Bill Gunshannon]

Anybody interested in a Sony MP-F75W-21G?  I have one to dispose of
as I got rid of all my Mac stuff a long time ago.

Make an offer.

bill

RE: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e

[Bill Gunshannon]

Got a picture of it?

I found that old PS/2 keys work in PDP-11 and VAX boxes, might work in the
SparcServer, too. (I don't remember any of the Sparcs att he Univerisity having
keys but they were old and maybe Sun came up with a reason to add one.)

bill
 

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Jerry Kemp 
[ot...@oryx.us]
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 7:06 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e

Its literally Christmas for me today.

I came into physical position of a well optioned-out SPARCserver 1000e,
accompanied by several SPARC Storage Arrays.

I'm doing a physical review of the 1000e, i.e. re-seating boards, physical clean
up, etc.  And reviewing all the appropriate hardware documentation, still
available, directly from Oracle.

Anyway, on the front of the case is a (4) position power switch (i.e. standby,
on, DIAG, lock), that is unfortunately not set to the on position.

Hoping that someone out there either has a key that they will part with, or,
knows of another (presumably Sun) key that will work in the 1000e key switch.

Thanks for looking,

Jerry @ 75077

RE: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e

[Bill Gunshannon]

Or, you could just open up the box and replace the switch with one that doesn't
require a key.

bill


From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mark G Thomas 
[m...@misty.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 3:06 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Jerry Kemp
Subject: Re: need (physical) key for Sun SPARCserver 1000e

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 12:29:17AM -0600, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> ...
> >>I was informed that the key I need is part #330-1651 .
> >>
> >>This key was shared by the SS1000, SC2000, StorEdge L1000, StorEdge L140,
> >>StorEdge L400, SPARCstorage Library Model 8/400, 8/140, and possibly other
> >>hardware of that vintage.

> Thanks for the reply.  I did just go try.  No luck though.
>
> Given that I now have a P/N for the key, and that it was used across
> a wide assortment of equipment, right now, I'm feeling pretty
> confident that one will pop up somewhere.
>
> Only time will tell.

I believe I have the correct key. Although I no longer have my 1000e,
I still have a storage box which uses this key, so I'm not ready to
part with it yet. I'm 95% sure this key fit my 1000e, but it has been
a few years.

  http://files.markgthomas.com/dl/sunkey/

I thought maybe having a picture would help in finding the correct key.

> Worse case, maybe its a legitimate justification to purchase one of
> those lock pick sets I see on the Internet.  :)

I also remember successfully turning the keyswitch on my 1000e using a
small screwdriver and a paperclip. There is a knack to getting the
pins to stick in the right places while applying just slight turning
pressure with the screwdriver. You may be able to unlock the keyswitch
if you read about pin tumbler locks, no official "picks" necessary.

Mark

--
Mark G. Thomas (m...@misty.com), KC3DRE

RE: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa 
[j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:08 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers

> From: Paul Koning

>> When did V7 come out, BTW?

> The files on the SYSGEN tape have a timestamp of 26-Sep-79, so "Fall
> 1979" sounds right.

Ow. I was looking for something a lot earlier than that. I used RSTS-11 in
the '72-'74 timeframe, so it's a version from that era I'd like to have. Any
idea what version that would be - and if it's still extant?

> I've used the V4A kit (DECtapes) to build that ... (There's a V4A
> sysgen manual on Bitsavers too ...)

When was that one?


>> It would be really nice to have sources - are they gone forever?

> Some still exist. I know someone who has a RSTS source kit, not sure
> which version. I have pieces of source.

OK, better than nothing.

> A complication with all of this is the question of licensing. There's a
> hobbyist license for RSTS to build and run it, but whether that carries
> over to making sources available is an interesting question. I'm not
> sure who to ask these days, either.

Hmm. I guess technically HP owns it now?

Noel
__

Not so sure of that.  When Mentec went away the word was that some other
party had bought all of the old PDP-11 OSes (except maybe IAS) but I have
heard nothing about it in several years and fear a lot of it may now have
become lost.  It certainly isn't being held in secret because of some percieved
commercial value.

RSTS was my favorite PDP-11 OS and I have long wanted to see it Open
Sourced in its demise as I always wanted to try porting it to other machines
just for the fun of it.

bill

RE: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of j...@cimmeri.com 
[j...@cimmeri.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:51 AM
To: gene...@classiccmp.org; Discussion@
Subject: Re: RSTS V7 magtape images on bitsavers

On 2/11/2017 10:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> RSTS was my favorite PDP-11 OS and I have long wanted to see it Open
> Sourced in its demise as I always wanted to try porting it to other machines
> just for the fun of it.
>
> bill

I'm curious -- what made it your favourite, Bill?

- J.
__

Don't really know.  I just liked it.  Even with all my Unix backgrounbd I have
always had a penchant for some of the more obscure OSes.  I liked Primos,
too.

bill

RE: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctech [cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Earl Evans 
[e...@retrobits.com]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:45 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
Subject: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards

Hi there,

I've got a couple of DEC QBUS boards (including a quad SLU) for which
configuration is set by wire-wrap jumpers. I don't have a wire-wrap tool,
and have found that trying this by hand without one is not workable.

Has anyone come up with a clever way to permit reconfiguration of these
boards without semi-permanent changes? Or, alternatively, what wire-wrap
tool would you recommend?

__

I have a hlf dozen wirewrap tools laying around.  I have found little if any
difference in them.  Amazon has them for $10 to about $30 dollars. If it
matches the size wire your using the Radio Shack works fine for me.

bill

RE: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa 
[j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:32 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Changing wire-wrap configurations on DEC circuit boards

> From: Tony Duell

> I find wire wrap wire to be the best thing (soldered in place) to
> repair or modify PCBs.

That's what DEC used for ECO's.

Noel

I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me too it.  :-)

bill

RE: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis 
[ccl...@sydex.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:12 AM
To: CCtalk
Subject: Yale renames Calhoun College for Grace Hopper

Grace Hopper (if you've ever followed CODASYL or the COBOL language was
a very sharp lady who's long had my admiration.  Kudos to Yale!

http://news.yale.edu/2017/02/11/yale-change-calhoun-college-s-name-honor-grace-murray-hopper-0


That's the second place named after her in just a couple of months.  I wonder 
why all
the sudden interest in her?  Especially considering how hard academia is 
working to kill
her greatest accomplishment.

bill

RE: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react!

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of W2HX [w...@w2hx.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 4:19 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react!

Thanks. I meant that the comment about 45.5 was in jest but I actually have a 
plan to use a baudot to ascii converter box I have (also converts 60mA current 
loop to RS232) to allow me to connect my M28 TTYs to my PDP-8 and IMSAI. I 
think it will be much cooler than a 33 ASR. Of course the tape stuff won't be 
very useful :).

Eugene W2HX

_

My first hardcopy printer for the TRS-80 was a Lorenz LO15 connected thru a 
homebrew
interface on the cassette port.  I later upgraded to a Portacom-110 on the 
RS-232 port.

bill

RE: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT!

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mike Stein 
[mhs.st...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 1:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT!

I also attended one of her lectures in my distant youth and was similarly 
impressed; an exceptional person indeed, especially considering the culture and 
politics of the day.

m

- Original Message -
From: "Chuck Guzis" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: Ted Kaczynski was RIGHT!


>I apologize to the list for having made the original post.  I had the
> privilege of once meeting Dr. Hopper and was quite impressed.
>
> Again, I did not  mean to start a kerfuffle.
>
> --Chuck
>
>



I have a VCR Tape of one of here talks here somewhere.

But I am still waiting to hear what has caused this sudden flurry of Grace 
Murray Hopper
mania considering how muc of our domain (IT) seem to want her accomplishments 
to just
dry up and blow away.

bill

RE: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of 
cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 9:31 AM
To: bill.gunshan...@hotmail.com
Subject: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d

__

There was some talk a short time ago about accounts being shutdown because
of excessive bounces.  Well, a couple days ago I got one of these messages.
I have not stopped receiving messages from the list.  I think there is a problem
with the mailing list software.  :-)

bill

Old DEC Documentation

[Bill Gunshannon]

Anybody interested in a copy of:
  Communications Options Minireference Manual  (EK-CMINI-RM-001)

USPS Flat Rate would be under $15.00  Throw in a couple more fo the trouble of
taking to the PO and it's yours.

bill

DEC Documentation

[Bill Gunshannon]

Lower that postage estimate.  It fits in a padded envelope.

bill

RE: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Adrian Stoness 
[tdk.kni...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:48 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: confirm e3191f334ef584df40dccf9737f54f4dcd016a5d

Are you subscribed to both mailing lists?

__

Yes.  But so far I have only posted to this one.

bill

RE: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of jim stephens 
[jwsm...@jwsss.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 10:33 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay

On 2/22/2017 3:47 AM, dave.g4...@gmail.com wrote:
> Price is a bit silly
> ... the last one sold in the USA went for $200...
>
> Dave
Also, the motorcycle term used to describe this system's condition, is
"ridden hard and put up wet".

Compare to $5000 asking for the full running PDP 11/34 which was listed
(and I think is still wanting for a bid) recently.

___

For $5000 I would even consider selling some of my PDP-11's
The best offer I ever had was $100 for everything (about 10
working systems) minus the heavy parts that even the scrapyard
usually won't take.

bill

RE: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Mark Linimon 
[lini...@lonesome.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:45 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM Series/1 listed on UK Ebay

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 07:33:49AM -0800, jim stephens wrote:
> Also, the motorcycle term used to describe this system's condition, is
> "ridden hard and put up wet".

Hmm, in Texas I have only heard that used to apply to horses.

_

I ride both horses and motorcycles and I have never heard that particual
phrasing used for a motorcycle.

bill

RE: Q Bus Music Board

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa 
[j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 1:49 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Q Bus Music Board

> From: Jim Stephens

> That A6006 produces a hit in this document
> ...
> AAV11-C ANALOG OUTPUT BOARD
> ...
> 4 DACs, and a DC-DC converter.

Sounds like it might be a standard analog output board, for lab settings.
I'll bet the music thing is some marketing ploy, like the card game in 'The
Story of Mel'. (What, you haven't read 'The Story of Mel'?!? :-)

Noel



I think IO have a couple of them but I never heard them play music. :-)

bill

RE: Q Bus Music Board

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Pontus Pihlgren 
[pon...@update.uu.se]
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 11:26 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Q Bus Music Board

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 01:25:24PM +, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> I think IO have a couple of them but I never heard them play music. :-)

A couple of A6006 or a couple of Q Bus Music Boards?

(I'm guessing A6006, I think that even I have D/A boards lying
around)

__

Don't remember the numbers and they are packed away as I haven't done much
with my PDP's since moving 3 yearsago  but they are the A/D, D/A boards probably
from a MINC somewhere.  At the time I got them I was getting interested in
robotics, HVAC and home control and the PDP's seemed like reasonale candidates
as it's all for fun anyway.  Might be fun to make one talk Bluetooth and then 
use it
to control Lego MIndstorms and even my Roomba's.

bill

RE: story of Mel

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Fred Cisin 
[ci...@xenosoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:02 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: story of Mel

I love the wisdom of Allison's remark, that
what some of us still see as "recent current events"
is "ancient history" for the youngsters.

___

I certainly hope people here don't think I'm a youngster since I just (re)joined
the list.  I started in computers with the 1401.  I didn't look at computer 
generated
music until I saw the talks at Usenix Nashville 1991.  Especialy the one done by
the guys from Bell Labs.  I always had an interest in music as well as computers
but didn't connect the two at first.  Now I am very interested in MIDI.  I am 
in the
process of converting an old Baldwin 46H Console to MIDI (as the electronics in 
it
were shot and beyond possibility of repair.)  Once I had my COCO 3's up again if
I coudn't figure it out myself I was going to ask about interfacing between my
Casio keyboard and my Orchestra-90.  It could prove rather interesting to use
a COCO as the sysnthesizer for the Console Organ once it is rewired. :-)

bill

RE: story of Mel

[Bill Gunshannon]

From: cctech [cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of allison 
[ajp...@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 11:04 AM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: story of Mel

On 2/23/17 3:23 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:18:50PM -0500, allison wrote:
>> The sound (not music) card was actually a internally built and not sold
>> (that I know of).
> There must have been a few though, since several claim to have one and
> it even showed up on ebay.
>
> (I'm just hoping I'l get lucky and find one.. I have an 11/73 with
> graphics, it would be nice to add sound to it)
>
> /P
>
Last time I needed just a beep it was the DTR line on the async card
being flipped
by a simple loop.  If you flip it and leave it you get a click
Obviously you need
an amplifier(maybe or a transistor) and speaker to hear it.

The sound card I have is not part of the OS (any) and there is no
support so it does
nothing without code and a d/a or even a few bits will do sound.

FYI there was many articles in the micro world on doing sound and music
in Byte and DDJ back when (1975 to mid 80s) in the time before PCs and
sound cards.  For example Processor Technologies Music system.

See http://www.sol20.org/manuals/music.pdf for the manual on that.

I believe it was Polymorphic systems that did a polyphonic sound system
for z80 computers.

Those are samples of interest connected with computer music back then.



I always thought music in the old days was more about MIDI and letting
something designed for it do the work ala Usenix Nashville 1991.

bill

Re: Siemens T100 Terminal with Paper Tape - Available

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/8/21 6:21 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote:

Dominique,
Nice to see your machine working so well! I like how it lights up from the 
inside. To connect it to a computer, you could simply get a Volpe board that 
does the Baudot 60 mA loop to ASCII RS 232 conversion for you, or build one 
yourself like I did. Info on both here: 
https://www.curiousmarc.com/mechanical/teletype-model-19#h.p_2ltO4LwPtuZR


While I saw a number of them in Germany back in the 70's I
was never lucky enough to have one.  I did have a Lorenz LO-15
though and it was the first printer I had on my TRS-80.

bill

Re: tamayatech let down

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 12/20/21 9:32 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote:



Interestingly their SEO is rather well maintained and punching DEC part
numbers into Google, etc. often results in a hit to their site.  So they're
at least keeping that part of the business updated.


That shouldn't be taken as meaning anything.  If I search for
anything using google I get hits from ebay claiming they have
it to sell.  I have had the same experience in the past with
some of the better known DEC resellers.  Search for anything
using google and they come up in the results as having them
for sale.  A search then on their own site returns nothing.

bill

Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 1/1/22 1:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:




On Jan 1, 2022, at 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
wrote:

This:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137

The starting price is expensive, but probably not utterly unreasonable,
given that:

- the 780 was the first VAX, and thus historically important

- 780's are incredibly rare; this is the first one I recall seeing for sale
  in the classic computer era (versus several -11/70's, /40s, etc)

- this one appears to be reasonably complete; no idea if all the key CPU
  boards are included, but it's things like the backplane, etc (all of which
  seem to be there) which would be completely impossible to find now - if any
  boards _are_ missing, there's at least the _hope_ that they can be located
  (780 boards seem to come by every so often on eBait), since people seem to
  keep boards, not realizing that without the other bits they are useless


Interesting, but the argument for why it's not tested is implausible which 
makes me very suspicious.  I suppose there might be a few American homes that  
have only 110 volt power, but I'm hard pressed to think of any I have ever 
seen, and that includes really old houses.


Having 240 in your house does not necessarily mean you have
240 outlets anywhere and not everyone is capable of doing
their own house wiring.

bill

Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 1/1/22 1:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

On 1/1/22 11:46 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Having 240 in your house does not necessarily mean you have 240 
outlets anywhere and not everyone is capable of doing their own house 
wiring.


There may even be 240 V outlets but not available when / where needed. 
E.g. in use (stove, dryer, water heater) or too far away to be able to 
plug the VAX in for testing.  Then there's also the chance that the 
plugs don't match.


I do 120 V wiring semi-regular.  I've done 240 V wiring before.  I'm 
sure that I'll do it again.  But I'm always afraid that failure mode on 
the 240 V is going to fail spectacularly.  My only saving grace is that 
the breaker will almost certainly trip in short order to mitigate my 
failure.  Thankfully no breaker trips thusfar.


In my current house I have done 240V/50A wiring, 240V/50A Sub Panel,
lots of 240V/30A outlets.  None of which I would advise the usual
amateur to do.  :-)

Just out of curiosity, how much current is needed for an 11/780?

bill

Re: VAX 780 on eBay

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 1/3/22 11:50 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 12:18 AM Warner Losh via cctalk
 wrote:

I had accounts on a MicroVAX 2 and a VAX 11/750. The microvax was faster
for most compute jobs, but the 750 with 1/4 the memory handled more users
mostly in text editors with the occasional compile or nroff/troff jobs.
IIRC, the 750 had faster disks...


I'll agree with that.  We used to run 40-50 users on our 8MB 11/750
(with both CMI and Unibus disk) but it did do some swapping over 8-10
users.



You obviously didn't use the Ada compiler.  :-)

Or Eunice, for that matter.

bill

Re: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 1/30/22 15:02, Jason T via cctalk wrote:

In order to further the effort of scanning and preserving ALL of the
things, I picked up a Canon Microfilm Scanner 300 for $cheap.  It has
a SCSI interface and doesn't work with anything past Windows XP, but
that's not a problem.  What is a problem is that Canon's link to the
XP driver is a big 4 0 4:

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/details/scanners/support-micrographic-scanners/microfilm-scanner-300/microfilm-scanner-300?tab=drivers_downloads

By any chance, does someone out there have this driver?  The filename
in question is "300350DRIT_V11.exe".  You can google that name and end
up either back at Canon's site or in Malware Hell ("just download this
Chrome plugin to get your driver!").

Note that this is not the Canon Microfilm Scanner 300-II, which is a
USB device and uses a different driver.

Thanks for any leads...



Any chance it might work under SANE on a linux or BSD box?

bill

Re: ISO: Canon Scanner Driver

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 1/30/22 22:21, Jason T via cctalk wrote:

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 3:42 PM Glen Slick via cctalk
 wrote:

Just manually edit that URL with the desired filename:

https://downloads.canon.com/cpr/software/scanners/300350DRIT_V11.exe


That's it!  I didn't think to substitute the filename I was after into
the URL for the other models' drivers.  Looks like a linking mistake
on Canon's part.  I believe I have two versions of the correct driver
now.  Thank you Glen!

Re: Linux and Sane, that's a great question as well.  I had success
with xsane with some older scanners that were otherwise long out of
support.  I'll check it out.

Thanks all



I use xsane for all my scanning.  Started using it for an HP SCSI
Scanner the University I used to work at dumped because of a lack
of support from HP on any Windows versions.  Still use it today.

bill

Re: Origin of "partition" in storage devices

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 1/31/22 20:13, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Yes, RT-11 is a somewhat unusual file system in that it doesn't just 
support contiguous files -- it supports ONLY contiguous files.  That 
makes for a very small and very fast file system.


The only other example I know of that does this is the PLATO file system.


The UCSD P-System had contiguous files.  If small files had been 
deleted, so that space was fragmented, you had to run a "CRUNCH" program 
to defragment it.   Directory entries had the starting location and length.


That was a minor inconvenience.  The bigger problem was that on a
"CRUNCHed" disk you could only open one file for writing. Attempt to
open a second returns an error.

bill

Re: VAX9000 unearthed

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/18/22 13:30, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 6:55 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:






Speaking of vector processors: there's a very obscure DEC processor, the
DEC MPP.  I remember seeing the processor architecture document when it was
being designed, not sure why.  It's a very-RISC machine, just a few
instructions, but lots of cores especially for that time -- 256?  More?
Recently I saw it mentioned in some documents, apparently it did get
produced and shipped, perhaps only in small numbers.  I wonder if any have
been preserved.



There was one listed on eBay for an obscene (like $500k?) price for quite
awhile, don't see it listed right now though.  Somehow I doubt it sold.
But at least there's one out there, somewhere...



Maybe, maybe not.  Failure to sell may have resulted in scrapping.
When I had to get rid of my last big iron vaxen at the University
it was made quite clear that if I didn't find them a home in a very
short time they would be scrapped.

bill

Re: VAX9000 unearthed

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/20/22 15:31, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 2/20/22 10:10, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote:

I heard Butler Lampson once exclaim that ECL design was in some ways easier
than TTL.  If you terminated every line, you get controlled impedances with
controlled edges.  This was the design philosophy for the Dorado.


Indeed--ECL WW prototype boards usually had a 3rd row for SIP
termination resistors alongside the DIP sockets.  One nice thing about
ECL is that there are many fewer problems with power rail spikes.  On
the other hand, the constant power consumption needs beefier power supplies.

I recall that Honeywell redid one of their mainframe designs in ECL,
with somewhat disappointing performance results.  I don't recall the
details offhand.


It's long enough ago that my mind is fuzzy, but I think Primes were
ECL.

bill

Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/21/22 21:14, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:

On 2/21/2022 6:55 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 4:32 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


Hi

    I have built an 11/83 in a BA23 box.

    It has a KDJ-11B, 2mB PMI memory, an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached,

Plus a CMD CQD 220A Disk controller with a digital RH18A 2Gig SCSI drive
attached.

Diag sees drive as RA82.

It boots and runs the diag disk and XXDP+ just fine.

I do not have install distributions for any of the 11/83 operating 
systems.


Daily driver system is a Windows 10 PC.

So how do I install an operating system?

Suggestions please.

Thanks

Rod



Is the PC old enough to still have PCI slots? If it is, one option 
would be
to pick up a cheap PCI SCSI controller, e.g. an AHA-2940, that you can 
use

to write disk images to a SCSI hard drive. Then use SIMH to create disk
images of an OS of interest that can then be dumped to the SCSI hard 
drive.
Or pick up a SCSI2SD device to use with the CMD CQD-220A instead of a 
SCSI

disk drive. Then copy disk images created using SIMH on the PC to an SD
card.

Is the CQD-220A a /TM version, or an /E version? If it's a /TM version 
you

could also pick up a cheap SCSI tape drive, and create installation tapes
for RSTS/E or 2.11BSD and boot from those to install on a SCSI hard 
drive.

I've done that a few times just for the heck of installing from tape. If
you have the /E version (or /T/M version) instead of the /TM version you
can do either MSCP or TMSCP,  but not both at the same time.

For RT-11, that is small enough it wouldn't be difficult to install from
RX-50 disks, if you had a means to create disks from images.





Another alternative would be, after installing an OS under SimH using 
another program as was suggested here, to transfer the disk image (e.g. 
vtserver  https://github.com/chapmajs/vtserver ).




It would be slow (but no slower than the above suggestion. :-).  I am
pretty sure there was a tape image available for installing 2.11 using
VTServer.  I even think I did it once or twice.  Haven't had a real
PDP-11 up for a while but I used to have fully patched versions running
on an 11/23, and 11/73 and an 11/93.  Just wish I could get some PMI
memory for that 93.

bill

Re: Installing an operating system on an 11/83

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/21/22 22:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

I think installing 30 floppy disks would be an exercise in insanity:


No arguments there.


That would probably wear down an RX50 drive to the nubbins.


Are RX50 drives less robust than what was used to install Windoze 95?




Did he say it was an RX50?  Or just a floppy.  Others were supported
like the RX33 which could read RX50 disks.  TEAC FD-55-GFR work fine
and can still be found in the wild.

bill

Re: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83)

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/22/22 12:55, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

 > From: Bill Gunshannon

 > Just wish I could get some PMI memory for that 93.

?? The KDJ11-E in the -11/93 comes with a minimum of 2MB on the CPU card.
That's enough for almost 16 maximum-sized processes (assuming they aren't
sharing program texts - almost double that, if they are). Does one really
need more than that for vintage retro use?

Besides, the on-board memory operates at full speed (same as cache memory on
the KDJ11-B); even if you added PMI memory, the KDJ11-E has no cache, so it
would be a _lot_ slower than the on-board memory.

Noel

PS: Can people _please_ trim messages they are replying to, so we don't all
have to scroll down past a bunch of irrelevant drek? Thank you.



One can never have too much memory.  Especially on these old systems
that had limited memory at best.  :-)

bill

Re: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83)

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/22/22 16:09, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:

I always thought that you cannot add (PMI) memory to an 11/93.
There are two versions of the 11/93. One with 2 MB, the other
with 4 MB of memory _on board_.   And that’s it.
If you have an 11/93 CPU with 2 MB on board, the board is just
half populated with memory. I don’t think you can add memory
externally.  But I might be wrong …

Henk, PA8PDP



I could be wrong, too, but I always thought you could.

bill

Re: PMI memory on an -11/93 (Was: Installing an operating system on an 11/83)

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/22/22 16:15, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

On 2/22/22 16:09, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:

I always thought that you cannot add (PMI) memory to an 11/93.
There are two versions of the 11/93. One with 2 MB, the other
with 4 MB of memory _on board_.   And that’s it.
If you have an 11/93 CPU with 2 MB on board, the board is just
half populated with memory. I don’t think you can add memory
externally.  But I might be wrong …

Henk, PA8PDP



I could be wrong, too, but I always thought you could.




It just hit me.  If someone has a 2 meg PMI board they don't want
any more I would be glad to take it and find and let everyone else
know.   :-)

bill

Re: Installing an operating system on the 11/83 - update.

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/22/22 20:08, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:




On Feb 22, 2022, at 7:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
wrote:

 From the FDC point of view, which doesn't have optical view of the drive and media, the 80 
track DD 5.25" looks similar to a "720K 3.5" drive.
(80 tracks, 9 sectors per track, 300 RPM, 250K data transgfer rate)

On SOME PCs, setting the CMOS floppy setting to "720K" may take care of it.


Originally I wrote my RX50 floppies on a Windows PC.  The drive was a plain old 
5.25 inch PC drive, normally used for 9 sector per track PC floppies.  It turns 
out some BIOS operations will reset it to 10 sectors, which is RX50 format, and 
then BIOS int13 operations can read and write it.  I coded up support for that 
in RSTSFLX, which can be found on my Subversion server (in branches/V2.6).  The 
original version was built with Borland C++, but I switched to DJGPP which made 
all that much easier.  No CMOS or other magic needed, just an application that 
knows how to speak int13.  And of course an old enough Windows, or plain DOS, 
which allows you to do those operations.

Subsequently I moved all this to Linux.  There is (was?) a tool -- fdparm? -- 
that you could use to tweak the floppy layout settings.  A simple entry in its 
config file would give the RX50 layout.  Then it's just a matter of handling 
the sector interleaving, track skew, and odd track numbering.  With just a few 
more lines of code, the application can handle the parameter setting so no 
prior setup is needed, which is what I ended up doing in RSTSFLX (in C).  The 
latest version does this as well, but in Python.

So as far as I can see, all this stuff is perfectly easy if you just use a 
plain ordinary floppy drive.



Hmmm..  I wonder if I could do any of this with my OS9 system
running on a Tandy COCO?  Lot's of ability to fudge with disk
formats and you can't find a controller much older.  :-)
Makes me wonder about the other old TRS80's.  All handle 5.25
floppies and have old controllers.  And OSes that let you do
pretty much anything you want.  Even shoot yourself in the foot.

I wonder if I even have any RX50 floppies laying still around
here anywhere?

bill

Tandon TM 848-02

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Does anyone have anything on the jumper settings for this drive?
I would like to jumper it so it can read DEC RX01/RX02 floppies.
I am looking at being able to read disks on a non-DEC systems
but I would also like to be able to use it on my Andromeda card
in a real PDP-11.

bill

Re: Tandon TM 848-02

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/24/22 01:09, Mike Stein wrote:

P 1-17 of the Service Manual



What manual?  I understand the one on bitsavers is for the
848 and not the 848-02 which has a completely different logic
board.  Have I been misinformed?

bill

Re: Tandon TM 848-02

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/24/22 07:51, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:




On 24 Feb 2022, at 12:21, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  
wrote:

On 2/24/22 01:09, Mike Stein wrote:

P 1-17 of the Service Manual


What manual?  I understand the one on bitsavers is for the
848 and not the 848-02 which has a completely different logic
board.  Have I been misinformed?



This is the one I have, it covers both -1 and -2 since they're the same board, 
only the number of heads is different.

https://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/TandonTM848ServiceGuide.pdf 
<https://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/TandonTM848ServiceGuide.pdf>



Thank you I grabbed it.  Should be a big help.

bill

Re: HP 9915A failed 8048

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/26/22 12:15, js--- via cctalk wrote:



On 2/25/2022 5:09 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
On 02/25/2022 2:23 PM Paul Berger via cctalk  
wrote:



The 8048 is a mask programmed part, there is an EPROM version 8748.
While the 8048 is mask programmed I believe that the contents of the ROM
can be dumped.
As Paul said, the 8048 is mask programmed.  However, I agree it is 
readable.  I "think" if you follow the "verify" step in the linked 
datasheet you can read from the rom.


https://www.ceibo.com/eng/datasheets/Intel-8048-8049-8050-plcc-dip.pdf

Will



Thanks very much Paul, Will!

 From info gleaned from this webpage (especially the comments at bottom):

http://www.mattmillman.com/projects/hveprom-project/an-easy-to-build-mcs-48-8748-8749-8741-8742-8048-8049-programmer-reader/ 




... indeed looks like there is a chance the HP's 8048 could be read and 
possibly programmed into an alternate part. However, it's a daunting 
task in my case.  I'd first have to build a 8048 programmer/reader 
shield for an Arduino, and then try to get my cracked 8048 successfully 
unsoldered from the HP 9915A motherboard, and then attempt to get 
consistent reads from it -- a special challenge due the crack.


As the chances of success are highly improbable, looks like I'm SOL on 
this particular motherboard.


Anyone have a HP 9915 they'd like to sell?



Could the PROM be read by a running machine?  Could someone who has one
working read it and send you a copy of the image?

bill

Re: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/28/22 14:07, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:

On Saturday (02/26/2022 at 03:21PM -0500), pbirkel--- via cctalk wrote:

A top-mount corporate cabinet looks like this:
http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/front2.jpg  The "DECDatasystem"
front-bar in the photo is over the 1U strengthener that braces the upper
portion of the rack ... since there is no brace at the top (as yours has).
Your cabinet will work fine; in my experience RL02's are always tight and
fiddly any place but the top-spot.


Is there a (hand-)book that describes the DEC cabinets and in particular this
"top-mount corporate cabinet"?  Is there a BA # for this cabinet?


There's a picture of one with the 11/24 in the small box in it on the 
cover of the 1981 PDP11 Processor Handbook.  You can see from the spacer

between the 11/24 and the bottom RL02 that it could also accommodate the
larger box version of the 11/24.

bill

Re: DEC top-mount corporate cabinet

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/28/22 14:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

On 2/28/22 14:07, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:

On Saturday (02/26/2022 at 03:21PM -0500), pbirkel--- via cctalk wrote:

A top-mount corporate cabinet looks like this:
http://www.cosam.org/images/pdp11-23/front2.jpg  The "DECDatasystem"
front-bar in the photo is over the 1U strengthener that braces the upper
portion of the rack ... since there is no brace at the top (as yours 
has).
Your cabinet will work fine; in my experience RL02's are always tight 
and

fiddly any place but the top-spot.


Is there a (hand-)book that describes the DEC cabinets and in 
particular this

"top-mount corporate cabinet"?  Is there a BA # for this cabinet?


There's a picture of one with the 11/24 in the small box in it on the 
cover of the 1981 PDP11 Processor Handbook.  You can see from the spacer

between the 11/24 and the bottom RL02 that it could also accommodate the
larger box version of the 11/24.

bill




As a follow on note  That was what the very first personally owned
PDP-11 was.  It came to me from HighLights Magazine thru my job at the
University of Scranton.  I miss that machine. Sorry I ever got rid of
it.

bill

Re: While on the subject of cabinets...

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/2/22 12:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:




On Mar 2, 2022, at 11:45 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk  
wrote:

On Tuesday (03/01/2022 at 04:36PM -0800), Marc Howard via cctech wrote:

I've got a PDP 11/34 I've never opened up.  It's mounted in a H9642
cabinet.  I can't get the bloody thing to extend on the chassis track
slides.

Is there a catch or lock screw on this unit?


Mine (and we may be learning, is not be a proper configuration) does not
have any release or catch to allow the CPU to slide out.  I just grab it
and start pulling and it slides out--  although it does not slide easily.
That could be due to old, stiffened lubricant on the slides.


Might be a non-standard slide, or a defective lock.


BUT! make sure you pull out the front foot at the bottom of the rack to keep
the whole rack from tipping forward if you do get the CPU to slide out.

The CPU is a heavy beast and the rack WILL tip forward once the CPU is
out far enough.


That's why H960 cabinets have optional front stabilizer feet.



RL's will flip it too.  And let's not even go into RA's.  :-)

bill

Re: Looking for computer and individual to read old floppy disks

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/11/22 20:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I could do it, but I'm a little squeezed for time and energy right now.
Spending my mornings under the LINAC.


Yikes!
The word "under" means that you are not doing atomic physics experiments.

Very sorry to hear it.


I got more details from the guy with the disks.  They are apparently 
"360K" PC floppies with XYWRITE files, and he wants to load the file 
contents into a "modern"? word processor.  So hopefully, somebody can 
help him, with a simple COPY *.*, and I think that he now understands 
that he might also need to get back a copy of XYWRITE to turn the file 
content into something usable.




It was mentioned that he would pay someone to do this.  Why not just
tell him to buy a $20 USB Floppy from Amazon and copy them himself?

bill

Re: gcobol

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/14/22 20:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it 
announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language 
front end for GCC.  Interesting.  For those who deal in legacy COBOL 
applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good 
way to get there.  Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah...



We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time).



I wonder if I can make build that front end with the pdp11 back-end.  :-)


I wasn't aware it was still possible to build the PDP-11 back-end.  I
thought support for that was dropped ages ago.

bill

Re: gcobol

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/15/22 09:12, Paul Koning wrote:




On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  
wrote:

On 3/14/22 20:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it 
announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language 
front end for GCC.  Interesting.  For those who deal in legacy COBOL 
applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good 
way to get there.  Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah...


We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time).


Yes, although that one is apparently more limited.  


In what way?

And GnuCOBOL is a COBOL to C converter.  gcobol is a full front end.  


Is there some shortcoming in using C as an intermediate language?



One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging.


Never had a reason to try it but I thought GnuCOBOL allowed the use
of GDB.  FAQ seems to say it can be used.




I wonder if I can make build that front end with the pdp11 back-end.  :-)


I wasn't aware it was still possible to build the PDP-11 back-end.  I
thought support for that was dropped ages ago.


No, it's still there.  I picked it up when it needed a maintainer.  It's 
actually been upgraded to deal with GCC changes, for example the new condition 
code handling which produces somewhat better code.  (Also the new register 
allocator, as an option, which unfortunately produces somewhat worse code.)



I may take a look at that although I'm a K&R kinda guy so things like
DEC C and DECUS C are usually fine with me.

bill

Re: gcobol

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/15/22 12:57, Paul Koning wrote:




On Mar 15, 2022, at 12:39 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
 wrote:

On 3/15/22 09:12, Paul Koning wrote:

On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  
wrote:

On 3/14/22 20:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

Saw a note on the GCC list that I thought some here might find interesting: it 
announces the existence (not quite done but getting there) of a COBOL language 
front end for GCC.  Interesting.  For those who deal in legacy COBOL 
applications that want a more modern platform, I wonder if this might be a good 
way to get there.  Run old COBOL dusty decks on Linux, yeah...


We already have GnuCOBOL which works just fine (most of the time).

Yes, although that one is apparently more limited.


In what way?


I thought I saw a comment to that effect in the announcement; looking more 
closely that isn't the case, other than the limitations you get from going 
through C as an intermediate language.  (Same sort of reason why the C++ to C 
converter is no longer used.)


Same comment.  I have done quite a bit of COBOL with GnuCOBOL and
find no limitations other than things they haven't implemented yet.
I am not expecting the OO stuff but then I don't know any real COBOL
programmers who are.  :-)  I have taken examples of COBOL I could
find from IBM Mainframes, and other systems and other than the
obvious modifications of things like file names I have not found
anything that doesn't migrate.  Would love to get other examples
from Systems like Univac, Primos, VMS, etc. to see how easily (or
hard) they migrate.




And GnuCOBOL is a COBOL to C converter.  gcobol is a full front end.


Is there some shortcoming in using C as an intermediate language?


Yes, debugging.  It means the debugger sees a C program, and it's somewhere 
between difficult and impossible to apply the original source semantics while 
debugging.


Interesting. The explanation in the FAQ seems to disagree with that
but as I said, I have never run into a problem that couldn't be
debugged using the source and my brain.  COBOL just isn't that
complex.  The last time I did have to do anything like that was
on a 4331 running VM370 about 40 years ago.  IBM made it real easy.




One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging.


Never had a reason to try it but I thought GnuCOBOL allowed the use
of GDB.  FAQ seems to say it can be used.


Yes, but presumably in C language mode.


But I thought there was a comment that because of the liberal use
of comments it was easy tracing a problem back to the COBOL source.

I'll probably never find out.  :-)

bill

Re: gcobol

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/15/22 13:31, Paul Koning wrote:




On Mar 15, 2022, at 1:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  
wrote:

On 3/15/22 12:57, Paul Koning wrote:

...



One difference is that GDB will be able to do COBOL mode debugging.


Never had a reason to try it but I thought GnuCOBOL allowed the use
of GDB.  FAQ seems to say it can be used.

Yes, but presumably in C language mode.


But I thought there was a comment that because of the liberal use
of comments it was easy tracing a problem back to the COBOL source.

I'll probably never find out.  :-)


Same here since I'm not a COBOL programmer.

What I meant: COBOL has data types like decimal numbers, which C doesn't seem to have.  
So how would GDB view such a variable? How would you enter a value if you want to change it?


Good point.  Might have to check it out just out of curiosity.
Last time I used any debugger was adb on System V 30 some years
ago to patch some M68K kernels.  The closest I have come to
that level of debugging in a long time is to use -S option and
read thru the assembler generated by the compiler.

bill

Re: Does anyone/museum test disk packs?

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/17/22 09:33, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Modern disks still have a filtration system and airflow within the disk. 
Air usually gets sucked from the edge then through the spindle and out 
the center. In this case I think the spinning created a lower pressure 
area where the heads were, resulting in the heads flying too low.


I'll re-look at the RL02 but I believe air was not pulled in from 
outside but recirculated from behind the heads under the unit to the 
center spindle where it came out, into the center of the pack and across 
the heads. Closed system when the lid was closed.


No RL disk I ever had closed tight enough to be considered a Closed
System with lid down.  :-)

bill

Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/27/22 05:17, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:

On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 11:12 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk
 wrote:


Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, the PSU repair 
is under warranty, which means I can't do it myself without invalidating the 
warranty, so I will have to send it back. I don't know if the ripple is caused 
by the blown part, but I suppose it is likely. I may be able to inspect it 
without breaking the seals.


That sort of thing would make me very suspicious as to what they've
done inside the PSU that they don't want you to see.



Pretty much every electronic device I have ever bought had seals on
it and a notice that breaking the seals voided the warranty.  Even
stuff with easily replaceable (or upgradeable) components.  Nothing
unusual here.

bill

FreHD

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Here's one for the memory banks.  I have a number of TRS-80's.
Back when they first came out I bought a couple of the FreHD
Hard Disk Emulators made by Fred Vecoven.  They worked great
and made life a lot easier.  Then, I had reason to put everything
away for a long rest.  I just pulled them out and set them up
again.  Neither of them does anything. As a matter of fact, in
my 4P they even keep the system from booting from floppies.
Anybody else run into something like this?  Is there something
that would go dead if they sat idle for several years?  I checked
the CR2032 batteries and they are still alive so it's not like
they ran out of power or anything.  Any hints?

bill

Re: PDP 11/24 - A Step Backwards

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/27/22 14:48, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

Bigger question is who repaired the power supply "under warranty"?



My guess would be whoever fixed it this last time and warranted it.

bill

Re: Glass memory?

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/1/22 16:17, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

Hey, I've got one of those somewhere (the delay line, not the terminal ;-)
)!

I do still use the cabinet as a desk, as well as a few parts here and
there; to think that today something like an Arduino nano can replace that
desk-sized cabinet containing a substantial power supply and a card cage
with at least a dozen cards IIRC... I'm still amazed by how far we've come
in less than my lifetime...


I was amazed 40 years ago.  I was trained by the Army as a Systems
Analyst/Programmer.  At the time what was called "The Army Standard
System" was an IBM 360/40.  It came with 3 semi tractors to pull the
two semi-trailers that held the computer and the third pulled the
generator it tool to run them.  I got my first unix system for my
home in 1984.  It was a pre-release of the Tandy Model 16.  It fit
on my desk.  Had more memory than a 360/40.  Had more storage than
a 360/40 and handled more users than a 360/40.  It cost less than
10% of a 360/40.  I actually got mine for nothing but that's another
story. :-)

And, as you say, an Arduino or a Pi that fits in my pocket is orders
of magnitude more powerful and costs pocket money.

Of course, sometimes I still miss the old days and old ways.  :-)
But then, isn't that why we are all here?

bill

TRS-80 Question

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Here's one for whatever TRS-80 gurus still hang out.

The Mode 4 had 64K RAM and pretended to be a Model III by loading
an image of the Model III Rom and then running it.  Would it be at
all possible to do the same thing with an image from the Model I
and thus make a Model 4 capable of running Model I programs?

bill

Re: TRS-80 Question

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/11/22 14:09, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:

On 4/11/22 11:56 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


Here's one for whatever TRS-80 gurus still hang out.

The Mode 4 had 64K RAM and pretended to be a Model III by loading
an image of the Model III Rom and then running it.  Would it be at
all possible to do the same thing with an image from the Model I
and thus make a Model 4 capable of running Model I programs?


The Model 4 had the Model III ROM included.  It was the Model 4P
that had to load the Model III ROM image from disk before operating
in Model III mode.


Not surprised I got that part wrong.  But then, I use my 4P all the
time and haven't touched a normal 4 or 3 in quite a while.



There were some hardware differences between the Model I and Model
III, such as the disk interface being memory-mapped in the Model I
and port-mapped in the Model III, but if the Model I programs don't
use anything that's different in the Model III then the Model 4 in
Model III mode should be able to run them.  So a game that's loaded
from cassette should work but a game that runs from disk and writes
to the disk won't work.


Actually, the big difference is the memory map.  Most Model 1
programs load right where the top off the Model III ROM sits
so they can not be used on the 3 or 4.  That's why I was hoping
the ROM image trick could be used.  I guess it was just wishful
thinking. Thanks for the info,

bill

Re: TRS-80 Question

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/11/22 22:37, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:

On 4/11/22 1:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

On 4/11/22 14:09, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:

On 4/11/22 11:56 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


Here's one for whatever TRS-80 gurus still hang out.

The Mode 4 had 64K RAM and pretended to be a Model III by loading
an image of the Model III Rom and then running it.  Would it be at
all possible to do the same thing with an image from the Model I
and thus make a Model 4 capable of running Model I programs?


The Model 4 had the Model III ROM included.  It was the Model 4P
that had to load the Model III ROM image from disk before operating
in Model III mode.


Not surprised I got that part wrong.  But then, I use my 4P all the
time and haven't touched a normal 4 or 3 in quite a while.



There were some hardware differences between the Model I and Model
III, such as the disk interface being memory-mapped in the Model I
and port-mapped in the Model III, but if the Model I programs don't
use anything that's different in the Model III then the Model 4 in
Model III mode should be able to run them.  So a game that's loaded
from cassette should work but a game that runs from disk and writes
to the disk won't work.


Actually, the big difference is the memory map.  Most Model 1
programs load right where the top off the Model III ROM sits
so they can not be used on the 3 or 4.  That's why I was hoping
the ROM image trick could be used.  I guess it was just wishful
thinking. Thanks for the info,


There's a 2K hole in the Model I memory map above the ROM, this
space is used by the Model III ROM (12K ROM on the Model I, 14K
on the Model III).  After that you have memory-mapped I/O on
the Model I.  Both of them then have the keyboard mapped at
3800H and the video at 3C00H.  RAM starts at 4000H on both of
them.

How the first section of RAM is used depend on whether you are
using disk or cassette and if you are using disk then which OS
you use.  There's a good breakdown of how the RAM is used here:

https://www.trs-80.com/wordpress/zaps-patches-pokes-tips/ram-addresses-and-routines/ 



So, this just gets more and more confusing. (Have I really been away
from all this for that long!!!)

I dug up the tech manuals for the two of them (buried deep in my
stacks of books) and compared them.  And you are, of course, right.

Which just brings more questions.

Why do Model I cassette programs (not BASIC) not run on the Model III?
Why did they relocate a Model I program that had a specific Model III
version to a slightly higher location in memory?

bill

Re: TRS-80 Question

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/12/22 11:49, Peter Cetinski via cctalk wrote:


On 4/12/22 6:37 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

So, this just gets more and more confusing. (Have I really been away
from all this for that long!!!)
I dug up the tech manuals for the two of them (buried deep in my
stacks of books) and compared them.  And you are, of course, right.
Which just brings more questions.
Why do Model I cassette programs (not BASIC) not run on the Model III?



Model I machine language cassette programs will run just fine on the Model III 
given that the restrictions on direct hardware access mentioned are respected.


OK.  I was positive that I had tried this in the past without success
but I don't trust me memory so much any more so I tried it again.




For example, for my game RoundUp!, you can load the 500 baud tape version on 
the Model I or Model III just fine.  Of course, you need to specify “L” for low 
rate baud of 500 at the Model III Cassette? prompt.  The model I only supports 
500 baud cassettes.


I just loaded Tiny Pascal for the Model I into a Model III.
Tape successfully loaded.
Typed / and hit return.
L3 ERROR.

I may try something else just to see what happens, but being as
Tiny Pascal is the program I want to work with, it really doesn't
matter.  :-)

I have asked in other places but I guess I'll ask here, too.
Does anyone have a copy of Tiny Pascal (a cassette program)
for the Model III?  While I still have my Model I version in
one of my moves it appears I lost my Model III version.  All
I have is documentation, no tape.

Has that particular program not managed to survive for some
reason?

bill

Re: PCI floppy controller

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

As another person with a desire to be able to read/write/create
disks of different sizes and formats I have found this interesting.

So the question, then

How hard would it be to make a floppy disk interface using an Arduino
or even RasberryPi?  If you could do that the choices of interface
to a PC opens up quite a bit.  It would never be like having a floppy
hanging off the PC, but then none of the formats I am interested in
are grounded in the PC anyway and utilities would need to be written
to access them.

comments?

bill

Re: PCI floppy controller

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/22/22 21:19, Warner Losh wrote:



On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 7:07 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:



As another person with a desire to be able to read/write/create
disks of different sizes and formats I have found this interesting.

So the question, then

How hard would it be to make a floppy disk interface using an Arduino
or even RasberryPi?  If you could do that the choices of interface
to a PC opens up quite a bit.  It would never be like having a floppy
hanging off the PC, but then none of the formats I am interested in
are grounded in the PC anyway and utilities would need to be written
to access them.

comments?


Isn't that what Greaseweasel  and similar do? I have a kyroflux that I use
to read floppies on my macbook. It can write as well and understands a ton
of formats. Greaseweasel is more available and supported (I got my kyroflux
before things went south, so wouldn't recommend others get one these
days).

Warner


I guess I'll find out.  I just ordered one.  Shipping is almost as much
as the device. :-(

Still think I will look into what it would take to access floppies
from an Arduino.  They're fun to play with, too.

bill

bill

Re: PCI floppy controller

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/22/22 21:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

As another person with a desire to be able to read/write/create
disks of different sizes and formats I have found this interesting.
So the question, then
How hard would it be to make a floppy disk interface using an Arduino
or even RasberryPi?  If you could do that the choices of interface
to a PC opens up quite a bit.  It would never be like having a floppy
hanging off the PC, but then none of the formats I am interested in
are grounded in the PC anyway and utilities would need to be written
to access them.
comments?


There are a LOT of possibilities.

At one point, one of my associates was playing around with various "PC 
on a board" motherboards that were 5.25" floppy drive size. ("Quark" 
80186 equivalent of an Ampro Little Board)  He mounted it with spacers 
on a 5.25" drive, in an external case.  It was a complete PC, that 
looked like an externala drive.
His primary purpose was to build dedicated PC industrial data 
acquisition units.  (Elcompco made several data acquisition systems that 
interfaced directly with banks of elevators) With trivial some software 
on it, it could connect to a "real" PC and do disk I/O.



I once saw an extremely similar commercial product being marketed for 
Macintosh that was an "external 5.25" floppy drive that can read PC 
diskettes".  It was an Ampro Little Board on a drive, with software for 
letting the Macintosh access files on its disks.  They avoided 
mentioning what was inside the box, and presented it as a Macintosh 
special external drive.   (similar to the Macintosh version of Video 
Toaster having an Amiga in the box)
They added software to it to handle some CP/M formats.  I was amused 
that among the formats that they supported were a format where I had 
misspeled the format name (due to customer handwriting), and they copied 
my mispelling, and they had a format that I had put into XenoCopy for a 
friend to handle his on-off prototype machine that never went to market. 
(a non-deliberate Mountweazel poach flag copyright trap)



You could build a small box with a drive and either a from scratch 
controller, or a 765 (or better yet, a WD 179x), that connects to PC.
In that box, you could put almost anything that could work with the FDC 
and communicate.



But, as a first step, and "proof of concept" for an external box, why 
not just start with a 5160 or 5170, running software and communicating 
with your host PC?  Then, later, you could replace the 5160/5170 with a 
more compact dedicated bespoke device.



(OK, I'm still thinking in terms of the days when people were upgrading 
PCs and throwing out the old ones, so that an XT cost NOTHING)




Your right about all the available options.  Somewhere around here I
have a couple of P112 SBC's.  I wonder what the floppy controller in
that can do?  I am pretty sure it claimed compatibility with CP/M 8"
disks.  If so it can probably handle all various 5.25" formats as well.

Looks like I may have a number of things to play with while I spend
my summer stuck in the house.

bill

Yet another TRS-80 question

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Has anyone ever seen a TRSDOS equivalent of the CP/M LOAD
command?  I have the PL/M-80 compiler running but it's
output is an Intel HEX File. Works great for CP/M but I
would really like to try some programs under TRSDOS.  The
only other option at this point would be to dis-assemble
the HEX File and then re-assemble the program after a
little massaging to make it match one of the TRSDOS
assembler programs.

bill

cleaning up edge connectors

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

I am hoping to restore my TRS-80 Model-I(s).  As is usually
the case with these the edge connectors are badly corroded
and dirty and cleaning them with an eraser really doesn't
help much.  Back in the day there used to be something you
could get that let you "gold plate" the edge connectors.
Is anything like that still available?  How about reflowing
the pads using something like silver solder?
If neither of these is doable or practical, what are people
doing to clean up these connectors?

bill

Re: cleaning up edge connectors

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/28/22 16:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 4/28/22 12:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


I am hoping to restore my TRS-80 Model-I(s).  As is usually
the case with these the edge connectors are badly corroded
and dirty and cleaning them with an eraser really doesn't
help much.  Back in the day there used to be something you
could get that let you "gold plate" the edge connectors.
Is anything like that still available?  How about reflowing
the pads using something like silver solder?
If neither of these is doable or practical, what are people
doing to clean up these connectors?


Anent that, here's an oldie but goldie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqr-ZmDHR8U


Now that was cool.  But, somehow I doubt it is still available.

bill

Re: cleaning up edge connectors

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/28/22 18:33, Jonathan Chapman wrote:

If there's bad/deep corrosion, I hit it with the ink eraser (I have a bunch of 
Eberhard-Faber ones that look like a wooden pencil, you sharpen them like a 
pencil too). If that won't touch it, I use the stainless steel toothbrush.

Corey Cohen has some plating solution that you dip a pen in, intended for 
jewelry repair. The plating does not hold up well over copper, you need a layer 
of nickel over the copper first. So, if you're removing down to the copper, 
you'll have to find a way to put nickel on first.


Copper?  Mine all look like solder.  Probably copper underneath but
the exposed part is lead which probably explains why they seem to
corrode so easily.

bill

Re: cleaning up edge connectors

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/28/22 18:02, Mike Katz wrote:

I use DeOxit Gold to clean my PDP-8 boards edge conectors:



I have DeOxit but I saw that as a very short term solution (no
pun intended :-)).  I think I will try my idea of using solder
with a little silver in it if I can find some suitable.

bill

The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Utterly amazed at how much I have forgotten.

Even more amazed at how much information seems to have been lost
since the days of the TRS-80.

So, I am no trying to get CP/M going again.  I have been able to
get floppy systems working but can not find any information on how
to build hard disk systems.  I have both 2.2 and 3.0 (CP/M+)
available but all of my software pre-dates the easy availability
of hard drives so I seem to be missing the needed pieces for
Montezuma Micro 2.2.  3.0 should support hard drives out of the
box but I can't figure out how.

Does anyone have any old documentation on how to do this?  I would
prefer 2.2 but I can probably do the stuff I want to play with under
3.0 as well.  It's PL/M-80 and it is certainly fun to have it working
again.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/4/22 14:35, Bill Degnan wrote:

Bill,
I searched for "montezuma 2.2 hard drive install" on Google:

https://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/montezuma_micro_hard_disk_support_for_cpm_2-2.pdf

I have been through the process a few times, it's pretty
straight-forward if you use these directions.



Yeah, I have that.  But it requires pieces that are not in my
distribution of MM 2.2 and attempts to find any of it on the
web have proven unsuccessful.  The one floppy image (MMRSHD,DSK)
I found (in more than one place) that is supposed to have it
seems to be corrupted.  If you know where I can find FIXCPM and
the hard drive DRIVERS I would greatly appreciate it.


bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/4/22 15:10, Bill Degnan wrote:

Bill,
Sorry, I understand now.  Assuming you have the confirmed ability to
make a disk from DSK image you found a corrupted DSK file.  Gotcha.  I
am kind of busy at the moment, but I do have the disk you need, the
actual disk.  If you find no other source I could image mine for you.
Otherwise you're welcome to bring your machine to Kennett Classic and
do the work here.  I just need a heads up to know to bring the disk
for you that day.


Thanks for the offer but I don't expect to be traveling much for the
next few months (thus the reason for finding fun things to do to keep
me busy).  If you get a chance to image it, I would appreciate that.
But no real hurry.  After next week I won't be going anywhere but
rehab.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

My thanks for all the help.  I now have CP/M 2.2 booting and running
from a hard disk on a TRS-80 Model 4P,  Now back to my PL/M.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Next step...

Apparently mu original Tandon floppy has bought the farm.
Does anyone know what the jumper setting are for a
TEAC FD-55GFR-149 for the TRS-80 4P?

I tried the usual (like for a DEC RX-33) but that didn't
fly.  Every sector fails verify after a format.  I am sure
it's a jumper thing.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/5/22 13:34, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote:

On Thu, 5 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


Next step...

Apparently mu original Tandon floppy has bought the farm.
Does anyone know what the jumper setting are for a
TEAC FD-55GFR-149 for the TRS-80 4P?

I tried the usual (like for a DEC RX-33) but that didn't
fly.  Every sector fails verify after a format.  I am sure
it's a jumper thing.


    The FD-55GFR is a 1.2MB drive, double-sided. The Model 4P used 360K 
drives (possibly Teac FD-55A), single-sided as installed at the factory. 
Are you sure that's the model number that was in your 4P?


I know it wasn't.  The original was a Tandon 50.  But the TEAC
FD-55GFR (in various flavors) was used in a lot of systems and
at least one website said they were used in the 4P.  It is an
extremely configurable drive that I have used for numerous DEC
systems (even the infamous RX50!)  I have several of them and
it should work just fine if I can find the magic jumper combination.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/5/22 16:28, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

Next step...
Apparently mu original Tandon floppy has bought the farm.
Does anyone know what the jumper setting are for a
TEAC FD-55GFR-149 for the TRS-80 4P?
I tried the usual (like for a DEC RX-33) but that didn't
fly.  Every sector fails verify after a format.  I am sure
it's a jumper thing.



On 5/5/22 13:34, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote:
    The FD-55GFR is a 1.2MB drive, double-sided. The Model 4P used 
360K drives (possibly Teac FD-55A), single-sided as installed at the 
factory. Are you sure that's the model number that was in your 4P?


On Thu, 5 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

I know it wasn't.  The original was a Tandon 50.  But the TEAC
FD-55GFR (in various flavors) was used in a lot of systems and
at least one website said they were used in the 4P.  It is an
extremely configurable drive that I have used for numerous DEC
systems (even the infamous RX50!)  I have several of them and
it should work just fine if I can find the magic jumper combination.


The Teac FD-55GFR is a 96tpi drive.  It can replace a 55G (1.2M), or a 
55F (720K) depending on controller, but it still has a narrow head for 
doing 80 tracks.   It will have to be jumpered to run at 300RPM, not 360.


It has a jumper that leave that up to the controller.



The FD-55B is double sided 48tpi ("360K"), and can be used in the 4P.
I don't know what, if anything needs to be done to use double sided in a 
4P (software patches? jumpers on disk controller?), but people DID.

It's a worthwhile modification to do.
The 4D, and the later models of the 4P used Teac double sided drives (55B?)


I used double sided as far back as my first Model III.  Even had a
full height Tandon 80 track double sided drive.  All I ever needed
was DOSPLUS or NEWDOS80.




On the other TRS80 models, the drive select jumpering was a little odd 
(although nor as odd as PC).  Like IBM, later, Radio Shack did not want 
to trust their people to be able to do the drive select jumpers.  So, 
they jumpered DS0, DS1, DS2, and used side select as DS3 on model 1!, 
then used a cable with the other drive selects removed.  So, with the 
stock cable, the first drive should work as DS0, but jumpers of DS1 and 
DS2 won't have any effect. https://www.tim-mann.org/trs80faq.html#[19]
Discusses the drive selects and Mentions that you can use 55GFR, but 
doesn't give the details that you need  (300/360 RPM, double stepping, 
etc.)


The 4P has the missing pins.  I never liked it and usually end out
putting in real cables and using Drive Select like it was intended.
At least until IBM won and the started making 3.5" drives without
any way to do drive select.




But, more importantly, is the fault ONLY when format/verify?
Does it still READ disks that you already have?


Haven't really tried that.  Most of the disks I have are over
20 years old.  If it fails to read who's fault is it?  The drive
or the disk.




One more possibility to pay attention, (you probably already know this, 
so sorry if saying it offends you), ...
You need to use 300 Oerstedt ("360K") diskettes.  If you use 600 Oersted 
(1.2M) disks, they will seem to work, and then immediately, or VERY 
soon, lose their content.


Yeah, I knew about that.  I still have piles of real floppies laying
around.  :-)

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/5/22 16:50, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
If you use a 80 track (96 TPI) 5 1/4" drive to read 40 track (48 PTI) 
floppies that will work but if you write onto them they will not be 
readable in a 40 track drive any more.   The reason for this is that the 
had is half the width and when the 80 track drives writes to a 40 track 
written disk it only overwrites half of the track.  And when the 40 
track drive goes to read the data it sees nothing but noise because the 
two halves of the track are different.


Well known and documented back when we first started using 80 track
drives.



If you want to write floppies on an 80 track drive and read them on a 40 
track drive.  Magnetically erase the disks with a demagnetizer and then 
format the disk in the 80 track drive but double stepping the format.


I always erase floppies with my tape degauser before formatting.  Even
new disks usually have some pattern written on them.



Double stepping means writing track zero on physical track zero and then 
writing track 1 on physical track 2 and track 2 on physical track 4, etc.


This avoids the problem of tracks with different data on each half of 
the track.  The 40 track drive will only see the half track data.


Not all operating systems nor drivers can handle this.

Gimix Flex for the 6809 could handle this as a special configuration.

I'm sure you could get the greaseweasel to support this also.


I just got a GreaseWeazle.  Not impressed so far.



I hope this helps.



All information helps.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/5/22 17:12, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Double sided drives in 4P shouldn't require anything more than software 
patches, to tell the OS (TRS-DOS, CP/M, etc.) that you have and want to 
use the other side.


The Model 3 and 4 disk controller (did the 4P use the same one??) 
supports double sided and uses pin32 as side select (as deity intended).


Pretty much.



Therefore, of course, using a drive that was jumpered for model 1 will 
require removing the pin 32 jumper that model 1 used as DS3.


While I have Model I's I never got into the modification stuff.  Today
I prefer to use things like MISE and FreHD (which also has a problem,
need to get in touch with Ian).



https://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/Model4_35_Drives.pdf
(includes model 3/4 FDC pinout)


This includes the 300RPM jumpering for [SEVERAL VARIANTS OF] 55GFR:
http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/525HDMOD.htm


Got that one.  But it seems to be mostly interested in making them
work on XT's.


The links on it to TEAC maanuals seem to no longer be supported by Teac.


The TEAC docs are still available but, again, even they seem
mostly interested in what it takes to use them with XT's and AT's.





To test the suspect drive, you could connect it to a PC; with DS1 
jumpered (instead of DS0), it should work as a "180K" (single sided 
"360K").


a PC with a floppy controller?  Wow, is that ever retro.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

I had forgotten just how much fun the TRS-80's could be.
At least for the moment I am giving up on trying to get
a TEAC 55GFR to work and just grabbed a par of disks from
one of my COCOs to work with.  I think one of the things
I need to do is try to move all of my old 5.25" disks to
3.5" disks as I expect functional 5.25" drives and disks
are just going to become rarer.  Maybe I should try the
GreaseWeazle on them and see if it can image them.

On another note, at one point my 4P failed to read from
a floppy.  The "Cass?" prompt showed up followed by the
"Memory" prompt.  I'm confused.  I thought the 4P didn't
have any ROM in it.  Where could these prompts and an
apparently functioning BASIC come from?

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/7/22 13:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Sat, 7 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

I had forgotten just how much fun the TRS-80's could be.
At least for the moment I am giving up on trying to get
a TEAC 55GFR to work and just grabbed a par of disks from
one of my COCOs to work with.  I think one of the things
I need to do is try to move all of my old 5.25" disks to
3.5" disks as I expect functional 5.25" drives and disks
are just going to become rarer.  Maybe I should try the
GreaseWeazle on them and see if it can image them.


You can image them with Dave Dunfield's 765 utilities; GreaseWeazel 
hardware isn't necessary.


Image them with what hardware?  A PC or one of my TRS-80's?



Trakcess, by Roxton Baker, is a BASIC program for TRS80 (including 3/4) 
that provides sector and track viewing and editing.  Trivial mods are 
needed to it for double sided.  Looking at the code of it is an 
extremely easy way to learn how to to controller level actions on the 
3/4, if you don't already know.


I will look for that.  I used to have some nice DiskZap programs
but have been unable to find any of them.  At least not on a disk
I can still access.  :-(




On another note, at one point my 4P failed to read from
a floppy.  The "Cass?" prompt showed up followed by the
"Memory" prompt.  I'm confused.  I thought the 4P didn't
have any ROM in it.  Where could these prompts and an
apparently functioning BASIC come from?


If I remember correctly (unrefreshed dynamic wet-ware), IFF you 
responded to those two prompts, THEN you got the BASIC, with the 
[cassette BASIC] version number.  Did you actually GET BASIC after you 
responded to them??


I didn't try typing in a program but I got the "READY" prompt.
I thought you had to have MODELA/III and be able to load it to
get to BASIC on a 4P.  I would be very surprised that while it
could not boot TRSDOS it could somehow load MODELA/III from the
floppy.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/7/22 13:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Sat, 7 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


On another note, at one point my 4P failed to read from
a floppy.  The "Cass?" prompt showed up followed by the
"Memory" prompt.  I'm confused.  I thought the 4P didn't
have any ROM in it.  Where could these prompts and an
apparently functioning BASIC come from?


If I remember correctly (unrefreshed dynamic wet-ware), IFF you 
responded to those two prompts, THEN you got the BASIC, with the 
[cassette BASIC] version number.  Did you actually GET BASIC after you 
responded to them??


Just took some time to duplicate it.  Answered the "Cass?" prompt.
Entered 0 for the "Memory" prompt.  Got BASIC.  Typed PRINT MEM and
PRINT FRE(0).  Returned 48K.  Anybody have any idea where that is
coming from?

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/9/22 14:39, Kelly Leavitt wrote:




*From:* cctalk  on behalf of Bill 
Gunshannon via cctalk 

*Sent:* Monday, May 9, 2022 1:10 PM
*To:* cctalk@classiccmp.org 
*Subject:* Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues
On 5/9/22 13:410 Bill via cctalk wrote:


Just took some time to duplicate it.  Answered the "Cass?" prompt.
Entered 0 for the "Memory" prompt.  Got BASIC.  Typed PRINT MEM and
PRINT FRE(0).  Returned 48K.  Anybody have any idea where that is
coming from?

bill
Please explain how you duplicated it? If you had a boot floppy in the 
drive then is it possible that enough of the model III or 4 ROM image 
loaded to allow for ROM basic to exist?




I "duplicated" getting the prompts that I don;t think should be there.
All I have to do is try to boot from a bad disk.  ie. Hit reset while
holding the "1" key with a non-bootable disk in drive 0:.



This might help troubleshoot


I don't know that troubleshoot is the word to use.  It's not trouble.
It's just curious as I didn't even think it was possible.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/9/22 17:08, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Mon, 9 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

I "duplicated" getting the prompts that I don;t think should be there.
All I have to do is try to boot from a bad disk.  ie. Hit reset while
holding the "1" key with a non-bootable disk in drive 0:.


Sorry, to pester with irrelevant details, . . . 


Not pestering.  I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

   "non-bootable disk"  Do 
you mean a Model 4 disk without system and/or with

errors?


Yes, or a Model III disk.  Or a disk I know has bad sectors on it.


OR, will it do it with a BLANK or PC disk?


Didn't try either of those.  Not sure I even have any.




This might help troubleshoot

I don't know that troubleshoot is the word to use.  It's not trouble.
It's just curious as I didn't even think it was possible.


not "troubleshoot", so much as understanding a feature and/or confirming 
what is "known"
If it will do it with a blank disk, then the statements that it "doesn't 
have ROMs" are more faulty. It obviously has SOME ROMs, to start up 
enough to try to boot.  But, this would tend towards disproving the 
statements that it doesn't have BASIC in ROM.
And, if it has the "POKE" command, then all sorts of wondrous things 
become more easily available.


Good point.  I'm going to have to go look at the 4P Tech Ref Manual
again.  Maybe I am wrong it has Model III ROMS that can be switched out
for 64K Ram mode.  But then, what is the purpose of MODELA/III.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Well, I hope this doesn't sound too stupid but I have searched all
the manuals I have and the web as well with no luck.

How do I make a bootable floppy from a running hard disk system?
Not copy an image to a floppy but build a bootable floppy disk
on a real running system.  I know it can be done because we had
to do it all the time in the good old days.  You couldn't just
make repeated copies of the original because BACKUP only worked
on disks of exactly the same format and we used to change physical
disks all the time.  35 track, 40 track, 80 track, SS, DS, SDensity,
DDensity.  I thought there was a single command to make the system
part and then you just added the Utilities you wanted.

Does anyone have instructions on how to do this?

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/10/22 21:45, Bill Degnan wrote:

are you running montezuma CP/M?



Among others.

TRS-DOS,, LDOS, LS-DOS, DOSPLUS, NEWDOS.

I could probably do CPM but at the moment the others are the
question.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/10/22 22:33, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Tue, 10 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

DDensity.  I thought there was a single command to make the system
part and then you just added the Utilities you wanted.



Was it SYSGEN?


As near as I can tell SYSGEN only modifies a file (or two) but
does not copy any files to a new location.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 07:11, Bill Degnan wrote:



On Wed, May 11, 2022, 6:24 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:


On 5/10/22 22:33, Fred Cisin wrote:
 > On Tue, 10 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
 >> DDensity.  I thought there was a single command to make the system
 >> part and then you just added the Utilities you wanted.
 >
 >
 > Was it SYSGEN?

As near as I can tell SYSGEN only modifies a file (or two) but
does not copy any files to a new location.


Each OS has its own process.  PIP to copy the rest of the files if 
you're using CP/M


Trsdos 6. (I think)
FORMAT :0
BACKUP $:x :1 (SYS,INV)

Where x is your hard drive letter.

Depends how much is on your hard drive.  If possible use a floppy to 
make a boot disk, less variables to manage.  I have a model 4p with hard 
drive at the shop but the floppy disk drive needs to be replaced


Tried it on LS-DOS 6.3.1.  Was surprised it worked at all as I
am used to BACKUP complaining that SOURCE and DESTINATION are
not the same format.

In any event, it ran till it filled  up the disk and then asked
another disk.  Not sure what it would do with another disk but
in any event, the first disk is not bootable.  So my search
continues. Maybe I'll try doing it again and actually give it
another disk.  Maybe it doesn't write the boot track until the
last thing.

Still think there should be a documented method for doing this.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 09:32, Bill Degnan wrote:



Each OS has its own process.  PIP to copy the rest of the files if
you're using CP/M

Trsdos 6. (I think)
FORMAT :0
BACKUP $:x :1 (SYS,INV)

Where x is your hard drive letter.

Depends how much is on your hard drive.  If possible use a floppy to
make a boot disk, less variables to manage.  I have a model 4p with hard
drive at the shop but the floppy disk drive needs to be replaced


Tried it on LS-DOS 6.3.1.  Was surprised it worked at all as I
am used to BACKUP complaining that SOURCE and DESTINATION are
not the same format.

In any event, it ran till it filled  up the disk and then asked
another disk.  Not sure what it would do with another disk but
in any event, the first disk is not bootable.  So my search
continues. Maybe I'll try doing it again and actually give it
another disk.  Maybe it doesn't write the boot track until the
last thing.

Still think there should be a documented method for doing this.

bill



I looked it up, BACKUP is only for like disks, sorry I thought it
might work. :-)


Interestingly, it does work from the hard disk to the floppy.  The
second (and I assume subsequent disks) is a data disk and doesn't
boot.  The first disk tries to boot but my guess is it has a hard
disk boot block which won;t work from a floppy.  :-)



You could try clearning your hard drive, installing only the contents
of a single boot disk and then backing that up to disk using the
method I suggested.  That *might* work, but you'd have to re-build
your hard drive again.


Based on the results of my last attempt, I doubt it would work.
Looks like there is a need to figure out how to install a boot
block and what files need to be copied to make usable floppies
for all the OSes.  Yet another task to work on.

I still can't believe there is no documented way to do this
already!!

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 13:40, Wayne S wrote:
There’s some utube videos on making bootable floppies. Maybe one of them 
will give you some ideas.

Here’s one that looks promising.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoxpnZ__w5Q 



That's a Tandy 2000.  Not a TRS-80 at all and it was never called that
by Radio Shack.  There are hundreds of YouTube videos on making MSDOS
bootable floppies.  Being as all it really took was the format command
I don't understand all the interest.

Nothing I could find on YouTube about real TRS-80's but then I would
expect nothing more from that waste of time.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

So, the bad news is no way found so far to make bootable
floppies.  Maybe not bad news as it gives me another fun
project to work on.

Further good news, however, is that I have revived my M3SE, MISE
and 2 FreHD's so I now have hard disks for pretty much all my old
systems.  Just have to build up the Hard Disks with the software
I need to play with.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 14:51, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:


Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 06:24:38 -0400
From: Bill Gunshannon 
To: Fred Cisin , "General Discussion: On-Topic and

Off-Topic Posts" 

Subject: Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues


On 5/10/22 22:33, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
DDensity.? I thought there was a single command to make the system
part and then you just added the Utilities you wanted.


Was it SYSGEN?


As near as I can tell SYSGEN only modifies a file (or two) but
does not copy any files to a new location.

Bill



No, SYSGEN is the CP/M command to initialize a blank, formatted disk with the 
CP/M system:

“The SYSGEN transient command allows generation of an initialized disk 
containing the CP/M operating system. The SYSGEN program prompts the console 
for commands by interacting as shown...” (From 
http://www.gaby.de/cpm/manuals/archive/cpm22htm/ch1.htm#Section_1.6.6).

SYSGEN puts the CP/M system files on a reserved (not visible) area of the disk. 
It is a separate program, not a built-in command. On the Osborne (which I 
used), CP/M was 4KB in size. You can use then use PIP to copy the other, 
visible files.



Seems a bunch of crossed wires.  SYSGEN is also a command on LDOS,
LS-DOS, versions of TRS-DOS (that were actually versions of LDOS
or LS-DOS) but with a totally different function.

I didn't now the command off the top of my head but I did  know
that making bootable floppies under CP/M was not difficult.  Just
like moving it to allow for different memory maps.  Something else
that none of the other TRS-80 OSes can do.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 16:23, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

are you running montezuma CP/M?


On Wed, 11 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Among others.
TRS-DOS,, LDOS, LS-DOS, DOSPLUS, NEWDOS.
I could probably do CPM but at the moment the others are the
question.


I, also, thought that you were asking for Montezuma Micro when I 
mentioned SYSGEN.


For the TRSDOS derivatives, you may need to locate a floppy boot disk 
for each, remove all "unnecessary" programs from a copy of it, and then 
BACKUP lots of copies.




That appears to be the way it is right now.  Wish I remembered
how we took NEWDOS80 from a 40 Track SSDD floppy and moved it
to an 80 Track DSDD floppy (which I had on my Model III back
in the 80's).

But a project might be to fix that.  Might require making
a copy of the boot block for all the different OSes I decide
to play with but, what the heck, we just do this for fun any
way, right?

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 17:54, Wayne S wrote:

Have you seen this post?

https://www.nightfallcrew.com/15/04/2012/tandy-radio-shack-trs-80-model-4p-dos-boot-disk/ 



I've seen that.  Again, that is not building a boot disk that
is taking an image from somewhere on the web and using a PC
with pretty much non-existent hardware to  copy the image to
a physical disk.  No TRS-80 involved at all.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 10:34, Mike Katz wrote:
I don't know about TRS-DOS but a lot of early floppy disk format 
programs had an option to make the formatted disk bootable or not. This 
would copy the bootloader to the appropriate location on the floppy, 
copy the OS to the floppy and update any necessary pointers to the OS on 
the floppy.


That's what i thought, too.  But I have been unable to find anything
like that in any of the documentation I still have.  I did find that
the SYSGEN Utility under DOSPLUS may be able to that.  But it may
only work from floppy to floppy and not when the system is booted
from a hard disk.



Usually a ROM bootloader would load a known sector (usually Track 0, 
Sector 0) and execute the code from that sector.  That code would then 
get the address of the Operating System from the disk (either in a fixed 
location on disk or a fixed location in the directory) and load the OS.




That's the way I have always known it to be. Thus why I said if
I work on a project to build boot floppies from hard disk systems
I will have to have a collection of BOOT Code for the various OSes
and know how they use it.  I guess the first thing I will need is
a program to read raw data from a floppy and another to write raw
data to a floppy.  This looks like a perfect job for PL/M.  :-)

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 19:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

That's the way I have always known it to be. Thus why I said if
I work on a project to build boot floppies from hard disk systems
I will have to have a collection of BOOT Code for the various OSes
and know how they use it.  I guess the first thing I will need is
a program to read raw data from a floppy and another to write raw
data to a floppy.  This looks like a perfect job for PL/M.  :-)


In the meantime (as a proof of concept?), you can manually read and 
write sectors with SUPERZAP  ?


Wow, SuperZAP.  Time do build a System with NEWDOS80.  :-)


and create a program in PL/M that makes boot floppies.


Well, at least to write the boot code to the disk.  Still have
to figure out what files need to be there for each OS and come
up with a way to copy them.  Hopefully as automated as possible.

But not right now as tomorrow I leave for Walter Reed Hospital.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 21:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
In the meantime (as a proof of concept?), you can manually read and 
write sectors with SUPERZAP  ?


On Wed, 11 May 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Wow, SuperZAP.  Time do build a System with NEWDOS80.  :-)


Well, it's a good one to have.
There are lots of alternatives to SUPERZAP, including TRAKCESS, whose 
source code will answer a few questions about TRS80 disk access.
Allen Gelder (Superstep) once told me that TRAKCESS had been Roixton 
Baker's major assembly language learning project.

SuperUtility
and, TRSCROSS by Mike Gingel does some disk format conversion.


I'll look up some of these.  I wrote a diskzap of my own (didn't
we all?) many moons ago but I don't still have a copy or remember
anything about how I did it.  But SuperZAP came with NEWDOS80 and
I probably used it the most. Usually for removing passwords.  :-)







and create a program in PL/M that makes boot floppies.

Well, at least to write the boot code to the disk.  Still have
to figure out what files need to be there for each OS and come
up with a way to copy them.  Hopefully as automated as possible.

But not right now as tomorrow I leave for Walter Reed Hospital.


Yikes.
I hope that that's as a doctor/consultant/visitor, not for treatment.


Nope, the consultations are over.  Monday they rebuild my knee.  I
wanted the bionic one but I didn't have the 6 Million Dollars.
At least there I will get a rebuild and not the hack job
replacement that is the norm where I live.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/11/22 21:07, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

Was it SYSGEN?


As near as I can tell SYSGEN only modifies a file (or two) but
does not copy any files to a new location.

Bill



No, SYSGEN is the CP/M command to initialize a blank, formatted disk with the 
CP/M system:

“The SYSGEN transient command allows generation of an initialized disk 
containing the CP/M operating system. The SYSGEN program prompts the console 
for commands by interacting as shown...” (From 
http://www.gaby.de/cpm/manuals/archive/cpm22htm/ch1.htm#Section_1.6.6).

SYSGEN puts the CP/M system files on a reserved (not visible) area of the disk. 
It is a separate program, not a built-in command. On the Osborne (which I 
used), CP/M was 4KB in size. You can use then use PIP to copy the other, 
visible files.

Bob



This is a very good point. Bill what OS is your hard drive?  I am not
sure if you need the disk you're creating to match the hard drive or
not, but it will make life a lot easier if they are the same.  LDOS,
NEWDOS, TRSDOS, CP/M are all very different and only NEWDOS attempts
at being compatible with other OS's.


Because my "hard disks" are FreHD, MISE and M3SE  I have multiple
operating systems.  I plan to work with CP/M, TRSDOS, LDOS, LS-DOS,
DosPlus and NEWDOS80.  They were all the ones I worked with back
when the TRS-80 was still new and I actually still have copies of
disks and documentation for most of it.  CP/M and DosPlus were my
favorites.

bill

Re: The TRS-80 Journey Continues

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Another question for the masters here.

I just tried to revive my Model III.  More than half the
keys don't work anymore.  What is the conventional wisdom
on cleaning these old TRS-80 keyboards?  Is compressed air
usually enough?  Can I spray the switches with something
like DeOxit safely?  I expect when I go to revive my
Model I's they are likely to be in the same state.

bill

PL/M & CP/M

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Recently in my wanderings on the web I saw a comment(I don't
remember where) that said at least one of the PLM-80 compilers
floating around was built from a dis-assembly of another one.
Does this ring a bell with anyone?  Would anyone know where I
might find these sources?  I have the Fortran version running
but I would like to look into something capable of running on
an 8bit system.

bill

Re: PL/M & CP/M

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 5/30/22 18:20, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Are you talking about this?

https://web.archive.org/web/20131110002247/http://www.nj7p.info/Common/Toys/Software/OS/work/IntelTools.zip

(Courtesy of Mark Ogden)



Not what I thought I was looking for but may turn out very
useful anyway.  I might be able to build a system and then
dis-assemble it to Z80 mnemonics.  In any event, it will
make fun reading.

Thank you.

bill

Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 6/3/22 08:16, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:




On Jun 3, 2022, at 12:47 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk  
wrote:

On Thu, Jun 2, 2022, 9:36 PM Warner Losh via cctalk 
wrote:


Speaking of DEPCA, does anybody (a) know what kind of mouse connects (the
docs just say DIGITAL MOUSE) and (b) know where to get one?

Warner



The usual VSXXX round mouse that is also used with VAXstations, either the
ball version or the Hawley wheel version.


That's a serial (4800 bps UART) mouse, right?  The protocol is documented; if 
all else fails you could create a converter for some other mouse type.  I did 
that for keyboards; the same hardware with different firmware is likely to do 
the trick.  I can't do it because I have nothing that would use such a mouse, 
though.



Is there a schematic anywhere for the hockey puck mice?

bill

Re: IBM PC Connecting to DECNET

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 6/3/22 08:46, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:

On 03/06/2022 03:09, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote:

On 6/1/2022 12:49 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

No one ever called it a "Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus
Adapter", just a DEPCA. I never previously knew that there was any
meaning behind the DEPCA name.


Yes, that's what it meant. "DELNI" - Digital Ethernet Local Network 
Interface. "DESTA" - Digital Ethernet Station Termination Adapter. 
DELQA - Digital  Ethernet Local Q-Bus Adapter (this one probably means 
something else. Working?). DEMPR - Multi Port Repeater. DEREP - 
Repeater.  And so forth. Yeah, nobody spelled it out, but those DExxx 
names usually meant what the device was. DEBNT, DEUNA, DEQNA. Same 
naming convention. I'm probably missing several.

    -Rick

The DEPCA manual 
(http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/depca/EK-DEPCA-PR-001_Apr89.pdf) 
says "DIGITAL Ethernet Personal Computer Adapter", without "Bus".


DELQA was "DIGITAL Ethernet Local-Area-Network to Q-bus Adapter" 
according to its user guide.


It's predecessor, the DEQNA, was "Digital ETHERNET Q-Bus Network 
Adapter", according to its user guide, or "broken", according to most 
people :-)




I see comments like this all the time but I used DEQNA, DELQA,
DELUA and DEUNA for years with minimal problems.  I think most
of the complaints originate after more modern networking equipment
showed up and people's expectations rose beyond the abilities
of the technology.  Like crashing systems by flooding network
segments with traffic.

bill