I would like to suggest that interested WRENCHES form their own
"subcommittee" so that we can have an somewhat organized approach to
this issue. I do know Fronius has been working on this, and we should
seek them out. I will volunteer to help organize the subcommittee. I
have done similar work on other issues. I think this will have to be
done by email so I will set up a process if there is interest. Chris
On 8/30/2021 2:40 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
The process is very regimented. Here's a link with the details:
https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works
<https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works>
A few things to note:
All submitted public inputs (PIs) are addressed by the relevant Code
Making Panel (CMP); the NFPA has transitioned so that all this
documentation is online (there used to be a PDF) - it can be viewed on
the "Next Edition" tab of NFPA 70 here:
https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition
<https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition>
The first draft of 2023, based on all the PIs submitted, came out on
6/28/21; comments on that document were due about 12 days ago, and the
second draft meeting is scheduled for late October. The product of
that meeting, which will post in March 2022, will be, for the most
part, the 2023 NEC.
Sooo, it is going to be tough to "repeal" or get rid of RS based on
the current state of things. There is the NITMAM process (ugh, so many
acronyms), which you can read about here
https://www.nfpa.org/techsession
<https://www.nfpa.org/techsession> and which I'm not very familiar with.
Please keep in mind that CMP-4 (which I am a voting-alternate on, and
which has jurisdiction over 690, 705, 710, and a few other Articles)
is composed of a wide range of folks, from the enforcement (AHJ)
community, the IBEW, various manufacturing trade organizations,
utility organizations, the fire fighting/first responder community,
and solar-specific organizations. Folks have widely varying degrees of
interest in – and experience with – PV, but they all bring technical
expertise from across the electrical industry. You may be surprised to
hear it, but requirements in regards to RS could have been a lot more
stringent, a lot more quickly, without key representation from the
panel members that are most dedicated to the solar industry.
Furthermore this is a consensus process, and is often the case rarely
does anyone get exactly what they want.
Many of these same folks have been very active participants in the PV
Industry Forum, sponsored by SEIA, and comprised of something like
60-80 industry stakeholders that work together to craft and submit
consensus Public Inputs for the first draft. In this latest cycle we
submitted dozens of PIs, and the vast majority of them were accepted
and became part of the first draft. This process is key to
jump-starting the new Code cycle - without a Public Input to address,
the code-making panel cannot "touch" a section of the code. And of
course there are plenty of PIs from individuals and other
organizations that are addressed by the panel.
Cheers,
Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639
Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org <http://www.solarenergy.org>
SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com <http://www.seisolarpros.com>
On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:28 AM Christopher Warfel
<cwar...@entech-engineering.com
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>> wrote:
Brian, I think you serve on a CMP. (if not, anyone with knowledge
on the process would be helpful.) What is the process for
receiving and acknowledging input from non CMP members? Every
time I submitted comment, I received no response (as far as I can
remember). Thank you, Chris
On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it’s just a forum to
complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the NEC®
via the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there are a
few flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call to
action to fix module level shutdown by…having module level
shutdown in the junction box? Most of the complaints seem to come
down to connector standardization (which obviously was not the
issue with the APS meltdown that started this thread).
Brian
On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM,
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
<mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown.
https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd
<https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd>
FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than
safe than an arc fault protective device with a standard string
configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD devices, it
seems likely that this is true.
Drake
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
---
On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote:
I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence
not only the writing of the code but with what we are /buying/
OR /not buying./
If the devices we are required to install to make things "more
safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations,
we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap
and those who require installation of questionably safe &
reliable crap aware of these problems.
WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND
NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge
amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers
in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing
this stuff on, short season & man lift required.
Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your
supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable
products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can
get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt
replacement. IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a
market.
On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon
<jco...@sunwindpowerinc.com
<mailto:jco...@sunwindpowerinc.com>> wrote:
Carl,
Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure?
I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be
helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and
their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their
response to a request for compensation was that they would not
be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a
low cost item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been
in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily
have ended that run.
I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP that
their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability
engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a
0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that
2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We
engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to
contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know
failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple
solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal
enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn't
really solve the problem of extra connections though.
Best Regards,
Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
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