Jason, Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over the edge? Just a thought. Cheers, Dave
*Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Jason > > Any chance for some photos? > > Jay > > On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase IQ > system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We > reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side > interconnection using Polaris taps). > > Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue yesterday. > The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located on the > west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ > Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined > inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with > #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors > on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper > is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current > around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. > > I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the > blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. > > For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to > replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A > disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a > better test. I might also switch brands. > > Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time > Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to > this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan > of fuse reducers, however. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski < > ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No >> weather-related correlation. >> >> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but >> previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason >>> >>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool. >>> >>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher >>> air temp is causing it to fail. >>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed >>> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool >>> during peak heat would be a good test. >>> >>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s >>> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over >>> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker >>> ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? >>> >>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between >>> high ambient temperatures and tripping? >>> >>> It sure would keep me up at night too >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was >>> wrong. >>> >>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had >>> a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another >>> branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the >>> issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >>> >>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. >>> In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. >>> The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We >>> can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There >>> are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is >>> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the >>> individual branch circuit breakers. >>> >>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because >>> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one >>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit >>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable >>> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's >>>> one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>> >>>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed >>>>> somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? >>>>> That could explain two different breakers tripping. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after >>>>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, >>>>>> even >>>>>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long >>>>>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in >>>>>> small >>>>>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence >>>>>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to >>>>>> rain events. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and >>>>>> how >>>>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post < >>>>>> integrityenergy...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the >>>>>>> main >>>>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last >>>>>>> fall >>>>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase >>>>>>> termination >>>>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> rail… >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <IE LOGO 150x78.jpg> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3d62f76a530747b19a4154eb2e2b0d2548eee0a0?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ienergyvt.com&userId=1613865&signature=6df658aa959a645e> >>>>>>> Facebook >>>>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/d6455a016d2384afbd80a78dab5594aee31be9f3?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fintegrityenergyllp%3Fref%3Dhl&userId=1613865&signature=8d22e279508a21c8> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of >>>>>>> the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t >>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>> why not? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested >>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at >>>>>>>>> night? I >>>>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors >>>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It >>>>>>>>> seems >>>>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how >>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip >>>>>>>>> simultaneously? >>>>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder >>>>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between >>>>>>>>> the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM < >>>>>>>>> drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the >>>>>>>>>> grid. >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That >>>>>>>>>> was my >>>>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray <r...@solarray.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips >>>>>>>>>> off at? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch >>>>>>>>>> circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which >>>>>>>>>> breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for >>>>>>>>>> about two >>>>>>>>>> weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I >>>>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we >>>>>>>>>> will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I >>>>>>>>>> doubt I >>>>>>>>>> have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the >>>>>>>>>> combined >>>>>>>>>> breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were >>>>>>>>>> tripping >>>>>>>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>>>>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I >>>>>>>>>> have seen >>>>>>>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue >>>>>>>>>> whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM <scot.a...@solarcentex.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and >>>>>>>>>> max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally >>>>>>>>>> nice days >>>>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be >>>>>>>>>> extra >>>>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with >>>>>>>>>> and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 >>>>>>>>>> microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit >>>>>>>>>> breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load >>>>>>>>>> center have >>>>>>>>>> been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in >>>>>>>>>> the last >>>>>>>>>> 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, >>>>>>>>>> and cap, >>>>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be >>>>>>>>>> faulty, >>>>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it >>>>>>>>>> is the >>>>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my >>>>>>>>>> fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any >>>>>>>>>> suggestions on >>>>>>>>>> another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major >>>>>>>>>> hassle. >>>>>>>>>> One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection >>>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>>> fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of >>>>>>>>>> the two >>>>>>>>>> line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the >>>>>>>>>> fault is on >>>>>>>>>> if there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One >>>>>>>>>> turned >>>>>>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and >>>>>>>>>> landed on >>>>>>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal >>>>>>>>>> fault >>>>>>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke >>>>>>>>>> billowing out >>>>>>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. >>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> <IE LOGO 150x78.jpg> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a801e11047bc1010037cfdbe055bd092d1a4f46c?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=05066884a48f1bfe> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3d05f25829ab04d841703b4ca92c987450b2ae03?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=fc0244766d9eeb43> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/5f04781657fcaa5a49591b7a56acb717e508af4c?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=16aaa91e76397ba6> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/97ebe2c605c060f20eaee7d9963e71520c8d2ceb?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=6aecb4c1db8de13f> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/705e025611710906a83f10daaa516a558c04e151?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=0c22c05a885185fb> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a7227ae7a26262025d10f2e9a9c9629b876e7115?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=ce2abedc2f74f364> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f55ae01ea290b7240fd7e8bee597be67495770e5?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=e1483c1346923a63> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/5268f9a24fc1fed0f4a7ce823fa3c56679cfae16?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=89d19125692e15d4> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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