Hi Jason Any chance for some photos?
Jay > On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski > <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase IQ > system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We > reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side > interconnection using Polaris taps). > > Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue yesterday. > The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located on the west > side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ Combiner, > requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined inverter > output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with #6 THHN 90ºC > conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors on the > right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper is > silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current around > 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days. > > I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the blades > are not making proper contact with the line side terminals. > > For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to replace > the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A disconnect > with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a better test. I > might also switch brands. > > Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time Delay. I > have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to this, but > maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan of fuse > reducers, however. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski >> <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No >> weather-related correlation. >> >> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but >> previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi Jason >>> >>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool. >>> >>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air >>> temp is causing it to fail. >>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed and >>> that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool during >>> peak heat would be a good test. >>> >>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s fixed >>> it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over enough >>> time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker ( CBI >>> vs CH etc) would have worked? >>> >>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between >>> high ambient temperatures and tripping? >>> >>> It sure would keep me up at night too >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>>>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski >>>>> <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was >>>> wrong. >>>> >>>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a >>>> spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another >>>> branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the >>>> issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. >>>> >>>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In >>>> this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The >>>> same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't >>>> find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are >>>> no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is >>>> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the >>>> individual branch circuit breakers. >>>> >>>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because >>>> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one >>>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit >>>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable >>>> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski >>>>> <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one >>>>> of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>>> >>>>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, >>>>>> meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That >>>>>> could explain two different breakers tripping. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good luck >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>> <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after >>>>>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, >>>>>>> even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought >>>>>>> very long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating >>>>>>> strings in small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, >>>>>>> there was no evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and >>>>>>> it was not correlated to rain events. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting >>>>>>> to the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future >>>>>>> and how to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post >>>>>>>> <integrityenergy...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the >>>>>>>> main panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour >>>>>>>> before I showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other >>>>>>>> time last fall but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the >>>>>>>> Enphase combiner panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he >>>>>>>> had just washed off the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. >>>>>>>> I went on the roof and found that the installing contractor had not >>>>>>>> put on the Enphase termination caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with >>>>>>>> regular wire nuts and sitting on the roof, and the roof was damp right >>>>>>>> there. This was a fairly flat roof. The other micro trunk cable was >>>>>>>> just cut with no protection at all, tied to the rail… >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <IE LOGO 150x78.jpg> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Amos Post >>>>>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>>>>> Facebook >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>> <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of >>>>>>>>> the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t >>>>>>>>>> understand why not? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer >>>>>>>>>>>> <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>>>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l >>>>>>>>>>> suggested in a previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see >>>>>>>>>>> if it is one or both legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to >>>>>>>>>>> see what if anything leads up to the failure and when. >>>>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>>>> Jerry >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>> <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to >>>>>>>>>>>> the microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur >>>>>>>>>>>> at night? I had a suggestion from another wrench that there are >>>>>>>>>>>> film capacitors on the AC output side, but are these isolated when >>>>>>>>>>>> there is no DC input? It seems unlikely that this would be an >>>>>>>>>>>> issue, but I have seen microinverters reporting a couple of watts >>>>>>>>>>>> at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real that is. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip >>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously? That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch >>>>>>>>>>>> circuit has a fault, you don't often see premises main breakers >>>>>>>>>>>> tripping, or even feeder circuit breakers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between >>>>>>>>>>>> the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I >>>>>>>>>>>> would think this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure >>>>>>>>>>>> there are tons of CH feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch >>>>>>>>>>>> circuits downstream. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from >>>>>>>>>>>>> the grid. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That was my first suspicion. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray <r...@solarray.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trips off at? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> branch this time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for about two weeks and then trip again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modules, I feel that I need to replace all of the trunk cable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is an expensive proposition. I really don't know what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else to do at this point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tripped, I doubt I have two microinverters with internal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faults. It has to be the combined breaker. I was just surprised >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that branch circuit breakers were tripping simultaneously with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I have seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worried early on that I would be replacing fuses constantly, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that has not been an issue whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM <scot.a...@solarcentex.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tripped the string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect the breaker was less than perfect from the start as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we've add equally nice days since. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4,000 watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be extra careful going forward on IQ7 string length when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to the max published... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> center have been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> four times in the last 6 months. It was always the same branch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circuit breaker, so we kept investigating that string, checking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the junction box, trunk cable, and cap, etc. Finally we swapped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find any fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breakers would be faulty, so we have now switched out the CH240 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> main breaker in hopes that it is the culprit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggestions on another diagnostic step? These intermittent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems are a major hassle. One thought I had was to switch to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a supply side interconnection with a fusible disconnect. Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line fuses so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> installed. One turned out to be branch circuits that were not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> properly paired up and landed on different breakers. Another >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time we had an inverter with an internal fault which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> breaker multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>> >>>> <IE LOGO 150x78.jpg> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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