The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No weather-related correlation.
I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature. On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Jason > > One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool. > > I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air > temp is causing it to fail. > I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed and > that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool during > peak heat would be a good test. > > About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s > fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over > enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker > ( CBI vs CH etc) would have worked? > > Is that breaker box ever in the sun? Is there any Correlation between > high ambient temperatures and tripping? > > It sure would keep me up at night too > > Jay > > > On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was > wrong. > > The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a > spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another > branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the > issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why. > > So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In > this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The > same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't > find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are > no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is > happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the > individual branch circuit breakers. > > This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because > fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one > branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit > disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable > suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < > ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one >> of my early diagnostic steps for something like this. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere, >>> meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2? That could >>> explain two different breakers tripping. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after >>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even >>>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long >>>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small >>>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence >>>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to >>>> rain events. >>>> >>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we >>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the >>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between >>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is >>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters >>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to >>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how >>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post <integrityenergy...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit >>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main >>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I >>>>> showed up onsite. The customer said it had happened 1 other time last >>>>> fall >>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner >>>>> panel. Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off >>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there. I went on the roof and >>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase >>>>> termination >>>>> caps. 1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the >>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof. The >>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to >>>>> the >>>>> rail… >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <IE LOGO 150x78.jpg> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Amos Post >>>>> Integrity Energy >>>>> W 802.763.7023 >>>>> C 802.291.2188 >>>>> ienergyVT.com >>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/58933bf5da75ebfd5759806f078383f179a7e01e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ienergyvt.com&userId=1613865&signature=af6ae82df5af1a44> >>>>> Facebook >>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/63f2037fa95c86bfb9cacde53ce7337ca00cbe8b?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fintegrityenergyllp%3Fref%3Dhl&userId=1613865&signature=302c61b15286ee81> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one of >>>>> the branch circuit breakers each time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and >>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel? >>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main >>>>>> >>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have >>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand >>>>>> why not? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wrenches >>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very >>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested >>>>>> in a >>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both >>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up >>>>>> to the failure and when. >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output >>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue >>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the >>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I >>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It >>>>>>> seems >>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters >>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how >>>>>>> real >>>>>>> that is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause >>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously? >>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you >>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit >>>>>>> breakers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between the >>>>>>> BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think >>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH >>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the >>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the >>>>>>>> grid. >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I >>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> first suspicion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray <r...@solarray.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related? Rain, or high humidity? High >>>>>>>> temperatures? Do you have any indication what time of day it trips >>>>>>>> off at? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch circuit >>>>>>>> breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which breaker >>>>>>>> they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two >>>>>>>> weeks >>>>>>>> and then trip again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole >>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I >>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive >>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised (we >>>>>>>> will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I >>>>>>>> doubt I >>>>>>>> have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the combined >>>>>>>> breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were >>>>>>>> tripping >>>>>>>> simultaneously with the combined output breaker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I have >>>>>>>> never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have >>>>>>>> seen >>>>>>>> many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue >>>>>>>> whatsoever. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM <scot.a...@solarcentex.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size and >>>>>>>> max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the >>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped >>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the >>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice >>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>> since. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000 >>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra >>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max >>>>>>>> published... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My story. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scot >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with and >>>>>>>> Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9 >>>>>>>> microinverters >>>>>>>> each coming into an Enphase AC combiner. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit breakers >>>>>>>> and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have been >>>>>>>> tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last 6 >>>>>>>> months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept >>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and >>>>>>>> cap, >>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a >>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped >>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any >>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be >>>>>>>> faulty, >>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> culprit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my fingers >>>>>>>> crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on >>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>> diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle. One >>>>>>>> thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a >>>>>>>> fusible >>>>>>>> disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two line >>>>>>>> fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> there is in fact a fault. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with Enphase >>>>>>>> systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One >>>>>>>> turned >>>>>>>> out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and landed >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an internal >>>>>>>> fault >>>>>>>> which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and smoke >>>>>>>> billowing out >>>>>>>> of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker multiple times. >>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>> case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm perplexed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> <IE LOGO 150x78.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/24c315fcda26c07c8c61ebc7fc45304420218003?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=5cad40281598db91> > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3fa56849c26a16d5da5e3cb3806f334c12f54fbe?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=825a5dc2016b91a5> > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a2b2352b223bd5cda992c3643c6d1df26387ae13?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=dd82e5c002c6d8e4> > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/9d23c1beabbd57d6f5208da920d7c3921d99cac6?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=e2b6622645f1e195> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e798f577437a54297dd3fc0d4cf23e601343aa3e?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=7e9a75dfb84f92d9> > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/be7b650fe38118c57bfd07c091089e0460b09bff?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=681f711ca1b088cb> > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/52a8e692cb0f6e9eff25fdb76d5d6af61403dfb2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=08ed89bbdcf0dc0e> > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/6d97b633d507fa86b57791381ef9bb44fb3126bd?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=964d72a8333805da> > >
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