What evidence is there that non-ISP-provided routers are prevalent? I don't know anyone that doesn't have an IT power-user intervening that has their own router. If something works without a separate router, most people aren't going to go out of their way to get one.
https://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/ It does seem like there's enough IPv6 use in the last mile networks where they don't need the IPv4 users anymore. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Hoppes" <mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> To: "Mike Hammett" <na...@ics-il.net> Cc: "North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org>, "Daniel Sterling" <sterling.dan...@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 7:45:24 AM Subject: Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4 Yes No. On 9/28/20 8:44 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: > Are non-ISP-provided routers all that common anymore? > > Aren't there enough IPv6-enabled operators with critical mass of IPv6 > deployments that IPv4-only networks can be treated like the second-tier > citizens they are? > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> > *To: *"Mike Hammett" <na...@ics-il.net>, "Daniel Sterling" > <sterling.dan...@gmail.com> > *Cc: *"North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org> > *Sent: *Monday, September 28, 2020 7:42:16 AM > *Subject: *Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4 > > Many... but not all... and just because the operator is doesn't mean the > person you want to play with is. And just because the operator is > doesn't mean the router you or the other person is using supports it. > > On 9/28/20 8:20 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: > > Aren't most of the major operators using IPv6? > > > > > > > > ----- > > Mike Hammett > > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > > > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > > > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > > > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *"Daniel Sterling" <sterling.dan...@gmail.com> > > *To: *"Mike Hammett" <na...@ics-il.net> > > *Cc: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>, "North American > > Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org> > > *Sent: *Sunday, September 27, 2020 8:33:56 PM > > *Subject: *Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4 > > > > Matt Hoppes raises an interesting question, > > > > At the risk of this being off-topic, in the latest call of duty games > > I've played, their UDP-NAT-breaking algorithm seems to work rather well > > and should function fine even behind CGNAT. Ironically turning on upnp > > makes this *worse*, because when their algorithm probes to see what > > ports to use, upnp sends all traffic from the "magical xbox port" to one > > box instead of letting NAT control the ports. This does cause problems > > when multiple xboxes are behind one NAT doing upnp. If upnp is on and > > both xboxes are fully powered off and then turned on one at a time, > > things do work. But when upnp is off everything works w/o having to > do that. > > > > There are many other games and many CPE NAT boxes that may do horrible > > things, but CGNAT by itself shouldn't cause problems for any recent > > device / gaming system. > > > > It is true that I've yet to see any FPS game use ipv6. I assume that's > > cuz they can't count on users having v6, so they have to support v4, and > > it wouldn't be worth their while to have their gaming host support > > dual-stack. just a guess there > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:29 PM Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net > > <mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote: > > > > Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work behind one > > public IP, at least with XBox 360s. I haven't kept up in that realm. > > > > > > > > ----- > > Mike Hammett > > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > > > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > > > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > > > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > > <mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>> > > *To: *"Darin Steffl" <darin.ste...@mnwifi.com > > <mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>> > > *Cc: *"North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org > > <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> > > *Sent: *Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM > > *Subject: *Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4 > > > > I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not > > work - two devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an > > apartment complex or hotel WiFi system, etc. > > > > On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl > > <darin.ste...@mnwifi.com <mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com>> wrote: > > > > > > This isn't rocket science. > > > > Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, > > then they will have open NAT to play their game and host. > > > > On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes > > <mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net > > <mailto:mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net>> wrote: > > > > I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if > > anyone here knows why gaming consoles are so stupid when it > > comes to IPv4? > > > > We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through > > multiple layers of PAT and NAT. Why do we still have gaming > > consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their way through a PAT > > system with STUN or other methods? > > > > It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we > > still opening ports or having systems that don’t work? > > > > > > >
