"Well Known" to people who send high volumes of mail. HotMail has hundreds of millions of users.
Things that work when you have a thousand users are under strain when you have ten thousand, and fail long before a hundred thousand. Things that work well for a hundred thousand can barely handle a million, and have no hope of reaching ten million. And things that worked at ten million require significant retooling and rework and huge investments and ... It's enormous to get past one hundred million. And to push it further is huge. There are enormous issues, especially at the edge, that require methodologies at scale that people who are used to running a mail server with a few thousand users can't even dream about, especially when the system comes under attack, or some sender tries to game it, which they do ... All the freaking time. I wasn't the one who had to handle the blow-back for delivering all the traffic that the system considered spammiest into Junk, but I trust the people who turned on the feature and then turned it off. I have suggested that instead it be delivered into Deleted Items, from which it could still be rescued. The discussion is on-going. But the bottom line is, the whole system is a huge, Machine Learning engine driven almost exclusively by end user feedback; a message is selected at random that had been sent to the user, and they are asked to classify it, Spam or Not? And if too many users click, "Spam" ... Fairly quickly both that traffic, and traffic, "Similar" (proprietary, so don't bother asking; even I don't know...) to it will wind up in the Junk folder, and then get silently dropped, and at long last, the sending IP(s) will be blocked. If you've read this far, and don't know about SNDS and JMRP, or don't know how to open a ticket with HotMail sender support, well ... I'll post more later today. Aloha, Michael. -- Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Mark Foster<mailto:blak...@blakjak.net> Sent: 6/8/2016 9:28 PM To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails As a long time hotmail.com account holder, I can tell you that I would never request a silent-discard option. If you are able to determine via black-box algorithms that a message is sufficiently spammy, why not refuse after post-dot? I'm sure Hotmail deals with spam volumes that are orders of magnitude bigger than any other system i've ever touched or dealt with, but even so, whether bounded by law or not, this seems to be amongst the worst actions a mail platform administrator could take where the end users probably have not assented to the practice (I sincerely doubt Hotmail has communicated this approach to its _entire_ customer base). Mark. On 9/06/2016 2:08 p.m., Michael Wise via mailop wrote: > At the request of the customer-base, traffic that is classified as > sufficiently spammy (by various "Black Box" algorithms that I have no > knowledge of the inner workings...) is deleted even after a successful > delivery. > > At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action for sufficiently > spammy, and just delivered it into Junk; Customers complained. Loudly. So > whether the system is correctly classifying your traffic or not, I cannot > say. But the behavior is not unexpected in certain scenarios. Which one of > them applies to you, I cannot say. Even if I wanted to! But I really have no > idea, and no way to find out. > > This "Delete" action is a well-known mitigation that is not unique to Hotmail. > > About the only way around it would be to login to your test account, and safe > sender the sending email address. > Among other things, that will force the system to reconsider the verdict that > it has assigned to the IP and the traffic coming from it. > > It's possible that the IPs have a left-over bad reputation from a previous > sender, but that's difficult to tell. > > Good luck. > > Aloha, > Michael. _______________________________________________ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fchilli.nosignal.org%2fcgi-bin%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2fmailop&data=01%7c01%7cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7c5e7317a2e86d48a2505908d3901e8eb1%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=H0Rjn3ESEERa9liKuABBXs0LSufni2I0yUzzxqF59bs%3d
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