Hi Eileen Misrahi,
I may accept your offer. It may be a few days. Sometimes, the best
person person to learn from is someone who recently learned something. And
it can help both learn more as well.
Have a great day!
On Friday, February 28, 2014 1:54:53 PM UTC-5, Eileen Misrahi wrote:
>
> Hi April,
>
>
>
> I am only 6 months out of having purchased my Mac Air. I am not sure if I
> made the suggestion to your original thread about the web site called
> macfortheblind.com. I know you are probably using Mavericks, but the 3
> part series on the finder was extremely helpful to me in getting started
> and embracing the basic concepts. The finder to me is the guts of the
> computer and I equate this to Windows Explorer on the PC side. Do you have
> Skype? If so, I can try to help through Skype. Even though I am a relative
> newbie, maybe it will make more sense to another newbie in simplifying what
> I do to navigate around.I probably will not have the all the answers, but
> it’s worth a try. I also decided to invest the money in the 1 to 1
> sessions through Apple. It was $99, and if you get the right person, they
> will be patient enough (even though they are coming from the sighted view).
> Some of the concepts with mail made more sense after an explanation of the
> status box was reviewed, as far as knowing if something was read or not.
> The VO-J has become one of my favorite keystrokes in mail. It will jump
> from the message table to the text inside. If I want to delete the email, I
> just press the delete key and it puts me back on the message table. Contact
> me off list if you would like to do the Skype thing.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Eileen
>
>
>
> *From:* macvisi...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> [mailto:
> macvisi...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>] *On Behalf Of *April
> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2014 8:29 AM
> *To:* macvisi...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> *Cc:* catherine...@googlemail.com <javascript:>
> *Subject:* Re: An explanation of interaction required
>
>
>
> Hi Catherine Turner,
>
> I've used a lot of sites. All the blocktext of the Apple sites,
> I've listened to the random lists of commands hundreds of times, Even the
> 30 or 40 page one from I think it was AppleVis. The closet to step by step
> instructions is Tech Ease. There examples for a few items work well at
> first. Then quit working. I've tried the podcasts. However, they are low
> toned males, and I can't hear the words they speak.
>
> I will try Tim Kilbourn's site.
>
> On Friday, February 28, 2014 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Catherine Turner wrote:
>
> Hi April,
>
> Apologies if you've already talked about this separately, I am rarely
> up-to-date with list mail. But what resources have you tried for
> learning Mac/Voiceover? I found the getting started guide (which is
> available both on the Mac and online) helpful. Also David
> Woodbridge's podcasts. Or have you considered getting training face
> to face with someone?
>
> If you start a separate thread I'll try and help you though I am
> relatively new myself. I use Safari all the time and Mail sometimes
> so maybe I can help, I don't use Pages though.
>
> Catherine
> On 2/27/14, April <aprilbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think it's important to get the basics down first. Then, users can
> > branch out and try shortcuts.
> >
> > After two months, my VoiceOver works less than it did on day one. I
> still
> > have no idea how to use it to check mail, or on Safari. I kinda got it
> > working on Calendar and Pages. At one point. What works one time
> doesn't
> > work another.
> >
> > It would be great to find step by step instructions so I can do basic
> > things, and not sit there listening to beeps instead of it doing what I
> > need it to do.
> >
> > I listened to the list of commands hundreds of times. There are
> hundreds
> > of undefined commands. It's kinds like listening to a foreign language,
> > with no reference to the the language I speak. I have no idea what, or
> > where a command is supposed to be used. There is no logic to the
> command,
> > or the labels given to them.
> >
> > If I could find a text copy of these talkies, perhaps I could eventually
> > learn how to use VoiceOver.
> >
> > If I don't I likely won't be using a computer in a year. It seems every
> > setting I adjust based on something someone says breaks it further.
> >
> > Those of you who use it, make it sound so simple. You know the language
> > and terms, the new user does not. Watching someone use those terms and
> > what they accomplish would be a good thing, if I could hear the speaker.
> > Which, I can't. It's always low toned males. Way below my hearing
> level.
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, February 27, 2014 6:48:27 AM UTC-5, David Taylor wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Well, the fact is, that there are quicker ways to do things. Rather
> than
> >> first going to the desktop, to get to a known place, then having to go
> to
> >>
> >> the apps folder, etc, from whereever you are, you can use Spotlight to
> >> open
> >> an app, and it's so easy to teach. From anywhere, command-space, type
> in
> >> the first few letters of the app you want and if it isn't the first
> thing
> >>
> >> you hear, arrow to it. I just think there could be more reality in how
> >> people would actually use a computer, whereas teaching it the long way
> >> round makes anyone that doesn't know an operating system of any flavour
> >> think it has to be that inefficient. Clearly, my way isn't radically
> >> different, but I think more variety and more use of all the different
> >> methods, including David's current methods, would be helpful. I do
> value
> >>
> >> all the podcasts, so don't mean to sound critical, but I think there's
> an
> >>
> >> over-emphasis on not using all the features when they would be helpful
> and
> >>
> >> just using the very basic VO commands. The result is often that people
> >> think Mac is slow, and get too hooked up on how difficult interaction
> is,
> >>
> >> when it really isn't.
> >>
> >> Take care
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 27 Feb 2014, at 10:39, Catherine Turner
> >> <catherine...@googlemail.com<javascript:>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I echo the use of the tab key and Quick Nav. I use Quick Nav a lot
> of
> >> > the time and find it very efficient. You just need to get to learn
> >> > when it's appropriate/quick and when switching it off would serve you
> >> > better.
> >> >
> >> > A small point I would dispute is David Woodbridge starting his
> >> > podcasts at a certain known point. I think this is the only way to
> >> > create a podcast which is consistent and applies to as wide a range
> of
> >> > people as possible. There are so many possible starting points
> >> > otherwise: I've just started Mail and my VO cursor is set to focus
> on
> >> > the keyboard focus; or not; or I want to start Mail with Quick Nav on
> >> > or off and so on. So I guess he picks a consistent starting point to
> >> > make the podcasts manageable and give people a consistent learning
> >> > experience.
> >> >
> >> > I haven't herd enough to comment on whether too many trainers focus
> >> > too much on VO commands as opposed to the OS. I do know a lot of
> >> > Windows screen reader trainers do this. I would say that from
> reading
> >> > the VO Getting Started guide it was pretty clear which were VO
> >> > commands and which were OS ones so that's a good resource for anyone
> >> > who learns in that way...
> >> >
> >> > Catherine
> >> >
> >> > On 2/27/14, David Taylor <e.david...@icloud.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >>
> >> >> There are two things here. Firstly, you do not have to interact much
> of
> >> >>
> >> the
> >> >> time when people say you do, it's a case of learning the settings
> and
> >> the
> >> >> operating system just like in Windows. For instance, when I go into
> >> Mail, my
> >> >> VO is set to land me where the keyboard focus is so it lands me
> >> straight in
> >> >> the message list. Personally, I think more emphasis should be put on
> >> real
> >> >> world usage in these podcasts. Let me take David Woodbridge as an
> >> example.
> >> >> His podcasts are generally excellent and helpful, but he makes what
> I,
> >> >>
> >> >> personally, think are a couple of asumptions that just don't reflect
> >> the
> >> >> natural way to interact with a computer. Firstly, he assumes that
> you
> >> always
> >> >> start from a specific, known, position, and secondly, he only
> teaches
> >> >> VoiceOver. Unless it is absolutely unavoidable, he does not teach
> built
> >> >>
> >> in
> >> >> OS keystrokes and concepts. It would be comparable to teaching
> people
> >> using
> >> >> Jaws only to move word by word using the insert key method, and to
> do
> >> >> everything using the Jaws cursor rather than built in Windows
> >> keystrokes.
> >> >> David's methods are great for getting people doing specific tasks,
> but
> >> >>
> >> often
> >> >> not in the most efficient ways, and often not going deep enough or
> >> actually
> >> >> explaining enough. I tend to think that most Mac teachers make this
> >> mistake,
> >> >> I'm not picking on one person, just using the specific example as I
> >> know,
> >> >> use, and value David's work a lot.
> >> >>
> >> >> The concept of interaction, in my mind, is generally helpful. The
> idea
> >> >>
> >> is
> >> >> that VoiceOver gives you an overview of what is on the screen and
> the
> >> >> ability to get around it quickly. For instance, whereas in any
> Windows
> >> >>
> >> >> screen reader, if you find a toolbar (Which you will only do if you
> >> know the
> >> >> right keyboard commands), there is no quick way of getting past it.
> >> With
> >> >> VoiceOver, each control, or element, appears as just that, an
> element.
> >> >>
> >> Some
> >> >> elements you will generally want to deal with, which is where
> >> interaction
> >> >> could become an issue, but many, you want the ability to skip over,
> so
> >> >>
> >> >> VoiceOver is built on the idea that if you want to use it, you will
> >> interact
> >> >> with it.
> >> >>
> >> >> There are a couple of things you can do to seriously limit how often
> >> you
> >> >> have to interact. Check that your VoiceOver is set for initial
> position
> >> >>
> >> to
> >> >> keyboard focus, not to first element. In most apps, you will then
> land
> >> >>
> >> >> exactly where you want to be. Secondly, and I think this is default
> >> >> behaviour, make sure the setting tab key interacts is set to on.
> This
> >> way,
> >> >> whenever you use the tab key to get to a control, you will
> >> automatically be
> >> >> interacting with it, and you won't have to uninteract to tab or
> >> shift-tab to
> >> >> the previous control. Another piece of faulty advice is to never use
> >> the tab
> >> >> key in Mac. Rather, you need to remember that the tab key will act a
> >> little
> >> >> like it does in Windows, in that it will take you to the next
> control
> >> the
> >> >> app dev thinks you might want to use it to get to, While it is
> always
> >> >> advisable to learn apps using the VO keys navigation method, you may
> >> well
> >> >> find that, when you know what you are doing, in many cases, you will
> >> use the
> >> >> tab key just as much.
> >> >>
> >> >> Finally, I don't see how anyone who learns to use Quick Nav can find
> >> >> interaction a problem. The ability to skip around and navigate
> without
> >> >>
> >> >> moving your fingers at all is invaluable, and interaction becomes
> such
> >> >>
> >> an
> >> >> easy process. Personally, unless I am in a file list or something,
> if I
> >> >>
> >> am
> >> >> going to use a few navigation commands in a row, I always switch to
> >> Quick
> >> >> Nav. The reason I don't in file lists? I don't want to interact, so
> I
> >> want
> >> >> to use the built in, OS X keystrokes, to do things, simply arrowing
> up
> >> >>
> >> and
> >> >> down lists, using command-down to open and command-up to close etc.
> As
> >> >>
> >> soon
> >> >> as I press command-2, I am right in that list view so don't need to
> >> navigate
> >> >> to it, and the same is true if I use one of the keystrokes to get to
> >> >> specific folders.
> >> >>
> >> >> In short, I am saying what they say for every operating system:
> learn
> >> both
> >> >> your screen reader and the operating system if you want to use it at
> >> all
> >> >> efficiently.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers
> >> >> Dave
> >> >>
> >> >> On 27 Feb 2014, at 09:45, Lee Jones <leejo...@sky.com <javascript:>>
>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Dear List I wondered if some kind soul could explain the concept of
> >> >>> interaction on the mac. On podcasts you get taught how to use it
> but
> >> >>>
> >> not
> >> >>> what the underlying premise is behind it. What are the benefits of
> >> >>> setting up a screen reader this way. I find interaction an
> >> irritation.
> >> >>> On windows in outlook I'm immediately in the messages list I don't
> >> have to
> >> >>> interact with the list first. To me it just feels like interaction
> is
> >> >>>
> >> >>> always another keystroke between me and where I want to get to.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Many Thanks Lee
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Twitter: CTurner1980
> >> > My blog:
> >> > http://catherineturner.wordpress.com
> >> >
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>
> --
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> My blog:
> http://catherineturner.wordpress.com
>
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