Hi April,
I am only 6 months out of having purchased my Mac Air. I am not sure if I made the suggestion to your original thread about the web site called macfortheblind.com. I know you are probably using Mavericks, but the 3 part series on the finder was extremely helpful to me in getting started and embracing the basic concepts. The finder to me is the guts of the computer and I equate this to Windows Explorer on the PC side. Do you have Skype? If so, I can try to help through Skype. Even though I am a relative newbie, maybe it will make more sense to another newbie in simplifying what I do to navigate around.I probably will not have the all the answers, but it’s worth a try. I also decided to invest the money in the 1 to 1 sessions through Apple. It was $99, and if you get the right person, they will be patient enough (even though they are coming from the sighted view). Some of the concepts with mail made more sense after an explanation of the status box was reviewed, as far as knowing if something was read or not. The VO-J has become one of my favorite keystrokes in mail. It will jump from the message table to the text inside. If I want to delete the email, I just press the delete key and it puts me back on the message table. Contact me off list if you would like to do the Skype thing. Best, Eileen From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of April Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 8:29 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Cc: catherineturner2...@googlemail.com Subject: Re: An explanation of interaction required Hi Catherine Turner, I've used a lot of sites. All the blocktext of the Apple sites, I've listened to the random lists of commands hundreds of times, Even the 30 or 40 page one from I think it was AppleVis. The closet to step by step instructions is Tech Ease. There examples for a few items work well at first. Then quit working. I've tried the podcasts. However, they are low toned males, and I can't hear the words they speak. I will try Tim Kilbourn's site. On Friday, February 28, 2014 8:47:01 AM UTC-5, Catherine Turner wrote: Hi April, Apologies if you've already talked about this separately, I am rarely up-to-date with list mail. But what resources have you tried for learning Mac/Voiceover? I found the getting started guide (which is available both on the Mac and online) helpful. Also David Woodbridge's podcasts. Or have you considered getting training face to face with someone? If you start a separate thread I'll try and help you though I am relatively new myself. I use Safari all the time and Mail sometimes so maybe I can help, I don't use Pages though. Catherine On 2/27/14, April <aprilbr...@gmail.com <javascript:> > wrote: > I think it's important to get the basics down first. Then, users can > branch out and try shortcuts. > > After two months, my VoiceOver works less than it did on day one. I still > have no idea how to use it to check mail, or on Safari. I kinda got it > working on Calendar and Pages. At one point. What works one time doesn't > work another. > > It would be great to find step by step instructions so I can do basic > things, and not sit there listening to beeps instead of it doing what I > need it to do. > > I listened to the list of commands hundreds of times. There are hundreds > of undefined commands. It's kinds like listening to a foreign language, > with no reference to the the language I speak. I have no idea what, or > where a command is supposed to be used. There is no logic to the command, > or the labels given to them. > > If I could find a text copy of these talkies, perhaps I could eventually > learn how to use VoiceOver. > > If I don't I likely won't be using a computer in a year. It seems every > setting I adjust based on something someone says breaks it further. > > Those of you who use it, make it sound so simple. You know the language > and terms, the new user does not. Watching someone use those terms and > what they accomplish would be a good thing, if I could hear the speaker. > Which, I can't. It's always low toned males. Way below my hearing level. > > > On Thursday, February 27, 2014 6:48:27 AM UTC-5, David Taylor wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Well, the fact is, that there are quicker ways to do things. Rather than >> first going to the desktop, to get to a known place, then having to go to >> >> the apps folder, etc, from whereever you are, you can use Spotlight to >> open >> an app, and it's so easy to teach. From anywhere, command-space, type in >> the first few letters of the app you want and if it isn't the first thing >> >> you hear, arrow to it. I just think there could be more reality in how >> people would actually use a computer, whereas teaching it the long way >> round makes anyone that doesn't know an operating system of any flavour >> think it has to be that inefficient. Clearly, my way isn't radically >> different, but I think more variety and more use of all the different >> methods, including David's current methods, would be helpful. I do value >> >> all the podcasts, so don't mean to sound critical, but I think there's an >> >> over-emphasis on not using all the features when they would be helpful and >> >> just using the very basic VO commands. The result is often that people >> think Mac is slow, and get too hooked up on how difficult interaction is, >> >> when it really isn't. >> >> Take care >> Dave >> >> >> >> On 27 Feb 2014, at 10:39, Catherine Turner >> <catherine...@googlemail.com >> <mailto:catherine...@googlemail.com%3cjavascript:> <javascript:>> >> wrote: >> >> > I echo the use of the tab key and Quick Nav. I use Quick Nav a lot of >> > the time and find it very efficient. You just need to get to learn >> > when it's appropriate/quick and when switching it off would serve you >> > better. >> > >> > A small point I would dispute is David Woodbridge starting his >> > podcasts at a certain known point. I think this is the only way to >> > create a podcast which is consistent and applies to as wide a range of >> > people as possible. There are so many possible starting points >> > otherwise: I've just started Mail and my VO cursor is set to focus on >> > the keyboard focus; or not; or I want to start Mail with Quick Nav on >> > or off and so on. So I guess he picks a consistent starting point to >> > make the podcasts manageable and give people a consistent learning >> > experience. >> > >> > I haven't herd enough to comment on whether too many trainers focus >> > too much on VO commands as opposed to the OS. I do know a lot of >> > Windows screen reader trainers do this. I would say that from reading >> > the VO Getting Started guide it was pretty clear which were VO >> > commands and which were OS ones so that's a good resource for anyone >> > who learns in that way... >> > >> > Catherine >> > >> > On 2/27/14, David Taylor <e.david...@icloud.com >> > <mailto:e.david...@icloud.com%20%3cjavascript:> <javascript:>> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> There are two things here. Firstly, you do not have to interact much of >> >> >> the >> >> time when people say you do, it's a case of learning the settings and >> the >> >> operating system just like in Windows. For instance, when I go into >> Mail, my >> >> VO is set to land me where the keyboard focus is so it lands me >> straight in >> >> the message list. Personally, I think more emphasis should be put on >> real >> >> world usage in these podcasts. Let me take David Woodbridge as an >> example. >> >> His podcasts are generally excellent and helpful, but he makes what I, >> >> >> >> personally, think are a couple of asumptions that just don't reflect >> the >> >> natural way to interact with a computer. Firstly, he assumes that you >> always >> >> start from a specific, known, position, and secondly, he only teaches >> >> VoiceOver. Unless it is absolutely unavoidable, he does not teach built >> >> >> in >> >> OS keystrokes and concepts. It would be comparable to teaching people >> using >> >> Jaws only to move word by word using the insert key method, and to do >> >> everything using the Jaws cursor rather than built in Windows >> keystrokes. >> >> David's methods are great for getting people doing specific tasks, but >> >> >> often >> >> not in the most efficient ways, and often not going deep enough or >> actually >> >> explaining enough. I tend to think that most Mac teachers make this >> mistake, >> >> I'm not picking on one person, just using the specific example as I >> know, >> >> use, and value David's work a lot. >> >> >> >> The concept of interaction, in my mind, is generally helpful. The idea >> >> >> is >> >> that VoiceOver gives you an overview of what is on the screen and the >> >> ability to get around it quickly. For instance, whereas in any Windows >> >> >> >> screen reader, if you find a toolbar (Which you will only do if you >> know the >> >> right keyboard commands), there is no quick way of getting past it. >> With >> >> VoiceOver, each control, or element, appears as just that, an element. >> >> >> Some >> >> elements you will generally want to deal with, which is where >> interaction >> >> could become an issue, but many, you want the ability to skip over, so >> >> >> >> VoiceOver is built on the idea that if you want to use it, you will >> interact >> >> with it. >> >> >> >> There are a couple of things you can do to seriously limit how often >> you >> >> have to interact. Check that your VoiceOver is set for initial position >> >> >> to >> >> keyboard focus, not to first element. In most apps, you will then land >> >> >> >> exactly where you want to be. Secondly, and I think this is default >> >> behaviour, make sure the setting tab key interacts is set to on. This >> way, >> >> whenever you use the tab key to get to a control, you will >> automatically be >> >> interacting with it, and you won't have to uninteract to tab or >> shift-tab to >> >> the previous control. Another piece of faulty advice is to never use >> the tab >> >> key in Mac. Rather, you need to remember that the tab key will act a >> little >> >> like it does in Windows, in that it will take you to the next control >> the >> >> app dev thinks you might want to use it to get to, While it is always >> >> advisable to learn apps using the VO keys navigation method, you may >> well >> >> find that, when you know what you are doing, in many cases, you will >> use the >> >> tab key just as much. >> >> >> >> Finally, I don't see how anyone who learns to use Quick Nav can find >> >> interaction a problem. The ability to skip around and navigate without >> >> >> >> moving your fingers at all is invaluable, and interaction becomes such >> >> >> an >> >> easy process. Personally, unless I am in a file list or something, if I >> >> >> am >> >> going to use a few navigation commands in a row, I always switch to >> Quick >> >> Nav. The reason I don't in file lists? I don't want to interact, so I >> want >> >> to use the built in, OS X keystrokes, to do things, simply arrowing up >> >> >> and >> >> down lists, using command-down to open and command-up to close etc. As >> >> >> soon >> >> as I press command-2, I am right in that list view so don't need to >> navigate >> >> to it, and the same is true if I use one of the keystrokes to get to >> >> specific folders. >> >> >> >> In short, I am saying what they say for every operating system: learn >> both >> >> your screen reader and the operating system if you want to use it at >> all >> >> efficiently. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> On 27 Feb 2014, at 09:45, Lee Jones <leejo...@sky.com >> >> <mailto:leejo...@sky.com%20%3cjavascript:> <javascript:>> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Dear List I wondered if some kind soul could explain the concept of >> >>> interaction on the mac. On podcasts you get taught how to use it but >> >>> >> not >> >>> what the underlying premise is behind it. What are the benefits of >> >>> setting up a screen reader this way. I find interaction an >> irritation. >> >>> On windows in outlook I'm immediately in the messages list I don't >> have to >> >>> interact with the list first. To me it just feels like interaction is >> >>> >> >>> always another keystroke between me and where I want to get to. >> >>> >> >>> Many Thanks Lee >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> >>> >> an >> >>> email to macvisionarie...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> >>> To post to this group, send email to >> >>> macvisi...@googlegroups.com >> >>> <mailto:macvisi...@googlegroups.com%3cjavascript> <javascript:>. >> >> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> >> >> an >> >> email to macvisionarie...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> >> To post to this group, send email to >> >> macvisi...@googlegroups.com >> >> <mailto:macvisi...@googlegroups.com%3cjavascript> <javascript:>. >> >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Twitter: CTurner1980 >> > My blog: >> > http://catherineturner.wordpress.com >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to macvisionarie...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> > To post to this group, send email to >> > macvisi...@googlegroups.com >> > <mailto:macvisi...@googlegroups.com%3cjavascript> <javascript:>. >> >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionarie...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> . > To post to this group, send email to macvisi...@googlegroups.com > <javascript:> . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Twitter: CTurner1980 My blog: http://catherineturner.wordpress.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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