Hi, Well, the fact is, that there are quicker ways to do things. Rather than first going to the desktop, to get to a known place, then having to go to the apps folder, etc, from whereever you are, you can use Spotlight to open an app, and it's so easy to teach. From anywhere, command-space, type in the first few letters of the app you want and if it isn't the first thing you hear, arrow to it. I just think there could be more reality in how people would actually use a computer, whereas teaching it the long way round makes anyone that doesn't know an operating system of any flavour think it has to be that inefficient. Clearly, my way isn't radically different, but I think more variety and more use of all the different methods, including David's current methods, would be helpful. I do value all the podcasts, so don't mean to sound critical, but I think there's an over-emphasis on not using all the features when they would be helpful and just using the very basic VO commands. The result is often that people think Mac is slow, and get too hooked up on how difficult interaction is, when it really isn't.
Take care Dave On 27 Feb 2014, at 10:39, Catherine Turner <catherineturner2...@googlemail.com> wrote: > I echo the use of the tab key and Quick Nav. I use Quick Nav a lot of > the time and find it very efficient. You just need to get to learn > when it's appropriate/quick and when switching it off would serve you > better. > > A small point I would dispute is David Woodbridge starting his > podcasts at a certain known point. I think this is the only way to > create a podcast which is consistent and applies to as wide a range of > people as possible. There are so many possible starting points > otherwise: I've just started Mail and my VO cursor is set to focus on > the keyboard focus; or not; or I want to start Mail with Quick Nav on > or off and so on. So I guess he picks a consistent starting point to > make the podcasts manageable and give people a consistent learning > experience. > > I haven't herd enough to comment on whether too many trainers focus > too much on VO commands as opposed to the OS. I do know a lot of > Windows screen reader trainers do this. I would say that from reading > the VO Getting Started guide it was pretty clear which were VO > commands and which were OS ones so that's a good resource for anyone > who learns in that way... > > Catherine > > On 2/27/14, David Taylor <e.david.tay...@icloud.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> There are two things here. Firstly, you do not have to interact much of the >> time when people say you do, it's a case of learning the settings and the >> operating system just like in Windows. For instance, when I go into Mail, my >> VO is set to land me where the keyboard focus is so it lands me straight in >> the message list. Personally, I think more emphasis should be put on real >> world usage in these podcasts. Let me take David Woodbridge as an example. >> His podcasts are generally excellent and helpful, but he makes what I, >> personally, think are a couple of asumptions that just don't reflect the >> natural way to interact with a computer. Firstly, he assumes that you always >> start from a specific, known, position, and secondly, he only teaches >> VoiceOver. Unless it is absolutely unavoidable, he does not teach built in >> OS keystrokes and concepts. It would be comparable to teaching people using >> Jaws only to move word by word using the insert key method, and to do >> everything using the Jaws cursor rather than built in Windows keystrokes. >> David's methods are great for getting people doing specific tasks, but often >> not in the most efficient ways, and often not going deep enough or actually >> explaining enough. I tend to think that most Mac teachers make this mistake, >> I'm not picking on one person, just using the specific example as I know, >> use, and value David's work a lot. >> >> The concept of interaction, in my mind, is generally helpful. The idea is >> that VoiceOver gives you an overview of what is on the screen and the >> ability to get around it quickly. For instance, whereas in any Windows >> screen reader, if you find a toolbar (Which you will only do if you know the >> right keyboard commands), there is no quick way of getting past it. With >> VoiceOver, each control, or element, appears as just that, an element. Some >> elements you will generally want to deal with, which is where interaction >> could become an issue, but many, you want the ability to skip over, so >> VoiceOver is built on the idea that if you want to use it, you will interact >> with it. >> >> There are a couple of things you can do to seriously limit how often you >> have to interact. Check that your VoiceOver is set for initial position to >> keyboard focus, not to first element. In most apps, you will then land >> exactly where you want to be. Secondly, and I think this is default >> behaviour, make sure the setting tab key interacts is set to on. This way, >> whenever you use the tab key to get to a control, you will automatically be >> interacting with it, and you won't have to uninteract to tab or shift-tab to >> the previous control. Another piece of faulty advice is to never use the tab >> key in Mac. Rather, you need to remember that the tab key will act a little >> like it does in Windows, in that it will take you to the next control the >> app dev thinks you might want to use it to get to, While it is always >> advisable to learn apps using the VO keys navigation method, you may well >> find that, when you know what you are doing, in many cases, you will use the >> tab key just as much. >> >> Finally, I don't see how anyone who learns to use Quick Nav can find >> interaction a problem. The ability to skip around and navigate without >> moving your fingers at all is invaluable, and interaction becomes such an >> easy process. Personally, unless I am in a file list or something, if I am >> going to use a few navigation commands in a row, I always switch to Quick >> Nav. The reason I don't in file lists? I don't want to interact, so I want >> to use the built in, OS X keystrokes, to do things, simply arrowing up and >> down lists, using command-down to open and command-up to close etc. As soon >> as I press command-2, I am right in that list view so don't need to navigate >> to it, and the same is true if I use one of the keystrokes to get to >> specific folders. >> >> In short, I am saying what they say for every operating system: learn both >> your screen reader and the operating system if you want to use it at all >> efficiently. >> >> Cheers >> Dave >> >> On 27 Feb 2014, at 09:45, Lee Jones <leejones...@sky.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear List I wondered if some kind soul could explain the concept of >>> interaction on the mac. On podcasts you get taught how to use it but not >>> what the underlying premise is behind it. What are the benefits of >>> setting up a screen reader this way. I find interaction an irritation. >>> On windows in outlook I'm immediately in the messages list I don't have to >>> interact with the list first. To me it just feels like interaction is >>> always another keystroke between me and where I want to get to. >>> >>> Many Thanks Lee >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > > > -- > Twitter: CTurner1980 > My blog: > http://catherineturner.wordpress.com > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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