Thanks Tim Kilburn,
There is a lot of good information on that site! I appreciate it.
One of the sites I am trying to figure out to use in Safari, the main
document is a list. Figured out that much. Now, to get it to read the
text in the list, and not just the links in between each paragraph. It
works if I visually click on a paragraph. It will continue down the page
reading links and paragraphs then.
On Friday, February 28, 2014 10:29:56 AM UTC-5, Tim Kilburn wrote:
>
> Hi April,
>
> I had a web-site years ago that outlined some VoiceOver and Macintosh
> basics. Maybe it could be helpful to you. It is no longer live or public
> but available from my Server. The caution here, though, is that it was
> designed back when 10.4 Tiger and 10.5 Leopard were out so there are some
> things that have been improved and/or added since then. This could give
> you some of the basics that you need though. I suggest you read the front
> page, go to the Leopard apps link and start with the Finder to give you the
> best grounding. To access this out of date, but hopefully useful site, go
> into Safari, press cmd-l then enter 96.53.176.185 in the address/Search
> field and press return.
>
> HTH.
>
> Later…
>
> Tim Kilburn
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>
> On Feb 28, 2014, at 6:47 AM, Catherine Turner
> <catherine...@googlemail.com<javascript:>>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi April,
> >
> > Apologies if you've already talked about this separately, I am rarely
> > up-to-date with list mail. But what resources have you tried for
> > learning Mac/Voiceover? I found the getting started guide (which is
> > available both on the Mac and online) helpful. Also David
> > Woodbridge's podcasts. Or have you considered getting training face
> > to face with someone?
> >
> > If you start a separate thread I'll try and help you though I am
> > relatively new myself. I use Safari all the time and Mail sometimes
> > so maybe I can help, I don't use Pages though.
> >
> > Catherine
> > On 2/27/14, April <aprilbr...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:
> >> I think it's important to get the basics down first. Then, users can
> >> branch out and try shortcuts.
> >>
> >> After two months, my VoiceOver works less than it did on day one. I
> still
> >> have no idea how to use it to check mail, or on Safari. I kinda got it
> >> working on Calendar and Pages. At one point. What works one time
> doesn't
> >> work another.
> >>
> >> It would be great to find step by step instructions so I can do basic
> >> things, and not sit there listening to beeps instead of it doing what I
> >> need it to do.
> >>
> >> I listened to the list of commands hundreds of times. There are
> hundreds
> >> of undefined commands. It's kinds like listening to a foreign
> language,
> >> with no reference to the the language I speak. I have no idea what, or
> >> where a command is supposed to be used. There is no logic to the
> command,
> >> or the labels given to them.
> >>
> >> If I could find a text copy of these talkies, perhaps I could
> eventually
> >> learn how to use VoiceOver.
> >>
> >> If I don't I likely won't be using a computer in a year. It seems
> every
> >> setting I adjust based on something someone says breaks it further.
> >>
> >> Those of you who use it, make it sound so simple. You know the
> language
> >> and terms, the new user does not. Watching someone use those terms and
> >> what they accomplish would be a good thing, if I could hear the
> speaker.
> >> Which, I can't. It's always low toned males. Way below my hearing
> level.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thursday, February 27, 2014 6:48:27 AM UTC-5, David Taylor wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> Well, the fact is, that there are quicker ways to do things. Rather
> than
> >>> first going to the desktop, to get to a known place, then having to go
> to
> >>>
> >>> the apps folder, etc, from whereever you are, you can use Spotlight to
> >>> open
> >>> an app, and it's so easy to teach. From anywhere, command-space, type
> in
> >>> the first few letters of the app you want and if it isn't the first
> thing
> >>>
> >>> you hear, arrow to it. I just think there could be more reality in how
> >>> people would actually use a computer, whereas teaching it the long way
> >>> round makes anyone that doesn't know an operating system of any
> flavour
> >>> think it has to be that inefficient. Clearly, my way isn't radically
> >>> different, but I think more variety and more use of all the different
> >>> methods, including David's current methods, would be helpful. I do
> value
> >>>
> >>> all the podcasts, so don't mean to sound critical, but I think there's
> an
> >>>
> >>> over-emphasis on not using all the features when they would be helpful
> and
> >>>
> >>> just using the very basic VO commands. The result is often that
> people
> >>> think Mac is slow, and get too hooked up on how difficult interaction
> is,
> >>>
> >>> when it really isn't.
> >>>
> >>> Take care
> >>> Dave
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 27 Feb 2014, at 10:39, Catherine Turner
> >>> <catherine...@googlemail.com<javascript:>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I echo the use of the tab key and Quick Nav. I use Quick Nav a lot
> of
> >>>> the time and find it very efficient. You just need to get to learn
> >>>> when it's appropriate/quick and when switching it off would serve you
> >>>> better.
> >>>>
> >>>> A small point I would dispute is David Woodbridge starting his
> >>>> podcasts at a certain known point. I think this is the only way to
> >>>> create a podcast which is consistent and applies to as wide a range
> of
> >>>> people as possible. There are so many possible starting points
> >>>> otherwise: I've just started Mail and my VO cursor is set to focus
> on
> >>>> the keyboard focus; or not; or I want to start Mail with Quick Nav on
> >>>> or off and so on. So I guess he picks a consistent starting point to
> >>>> make the podcasts manageable and give people a consistent learning
> >>>> experience.
> >>>>
> >>>> I haven't herd enough to comment on whether too many trainers focus
> >>>> too much on VO commands as opposed to the OS. I do know a lot of
> >>>> Windows screen reader trainers do this. I would say that from
> reading
> >>>> the VO Getting Started guide it was pretty clear which were VO
> >>>> commands and which were OS ones so that's a good resource for anyone
> >>>> who learns in that way...
> >>>>
> >>>> Catherine
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2/27/14, David Taylor <e.david...@icloud.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are two things here. Firstly, you do not have to interact much
> of
> >>>>>
> >>> the
> >>>>> time when people say you do, it's a case of learning the settings
> and
> >>> the
> >>>>> operating system just like in Windows. For instance, when I go into
> >>> Mail, my
> >>>>> VO is set to land me where the keyboard focus is so it lands me
> >>> straight in
> >>>>> the message list. Personally, I think more emphasis should be put on
> >>> real
> >>>>> world usage in these podcasts. Let me take David Woodbridge as an
> >>> example.
> >>>>> His podcasts are generally excellent and helpful, but he makes what
> I,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> personally, think are a couple of asumptions that just don't reflect
> >>> the
> >>>>> natural way to interact with a computer. Firstly, he assumes that
> you
> >>> always
> >>>>> start from a specific, known, position, and secondly, he only
> teaches
> >>>>> VoiceOver. Unless it is absolutely unavoidable, he does not teach
> built
> >>>>>
> >>> in
> >>>>> OS keystrokes and concepts. It would be comparable to teaching
> people
> >>> using
> >>>>> Jaws only to move word by word using the insert key method, and to
> do
> >>>>> everything using the Jaws cursor rather than built in Windows
> >>> keystrokes.
> >>>>> David's methods are great for getting people doing specific tasks,
> but
> >>>>>
> >>> often
> >>>>> not in the most efficient ways, and often not going deep enough or
> >>> actually
> >>>>> explaining enough. I tend to think that most Mac teachers make this
> >>> mistake,
> >>>>> I'm not picking on one person, just using the specific example as I
> >>> know,
> >>>>> use, and value David's work a lot.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The concept of interaction, in my mind, is generally helpful. The
> idea
> >>>>>
> >>> is
> >>>>> that VoiceOver gives you an overview of what is on the screen and
> the
> >>>>> ability to get around it quickly. For instance, whereas in any
> Windows
> >>>>>
> >>>>> screen reader, if you find a toolbar (Which you will only do if you
> >>> know the
> >>>>> right keyboard commands), there is no quick way of getting past it.
> >>> With
> >>>>> VoiceOver, each control, or element, appears as just that, an
> element.
> >>>>>
> >>> Some
> >>>>> elements you will generally want to deal with, which is where
> >>> interaction
> >>>>> could become an issue, but many, you want the ability to skip over,
> so
> >>>>>
> >>>>> VoiceOver is built on the idea that if you want to use it, you will
> >>> interact
> >>>>> with it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are a couple of things you can do to seriously limit how often
> >>> you
> >>>>> have to interact. Check that your VoiceOver is set for initial
> position
> >>>>>
> >>> to
> >>>>> keyboard focus, not to first element. In most apps, you will then
> land
> >>>>>
> >>>>> exactly where you want to be. Secondly, and I think this is default
> >>>>> behaviour, make sure the setting tab key interacts is set to on.
> This
> >>> way,
> >>>>> whenever you use the tab key to get to a control, you will
> >>> automatically be
> >>>>> interacting with it, and you won't have to uninteract to tab or
> >>> shift-tab to
> >>>>> the previous control. Another piece of faulty advice is to never use
> >>> the tab
> >>>>> key in Mac. Rather, you need to remember that the tab key will act a
> >>> little
> >>>>> like it does in Windows, in that it will take you to the next
> control
> >>> the
> >>>>> app dev thinks you might want to use it to get to, While it is
> always
> >>>>> advisable to learn apps using the VO keys navigation method, you may
> >>> well
> >>>>> find that, when you know what you are doing, in many cases, you will
> >>> use the
> >>>>> tab key just as much.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Finally, I don't see how anyone who learns to use Quick Nav can find
> >>>>> interaction a problem. The ability to skip around and navigate
> without
> >>>>>
> >>>>> moving your fingers at all is invaluable, and interaction becomes
> such
> >>>>>
> >>> an
> >>>>> easy process. Personally, unless I am in a file list or something,
> if I
> >>>>>
> >>> am
> >>>>> going to use a few navigation commands in a row, I always switch to
> >>> Quick
> >>>>> Nav. The reason I don't in file lists? I don't want to interact, so
> I
> >>> want
> >>>>> to use the built in, OS X keystrokes, to do things, simply arrowing
> up
> >>>>>
> >>> and
> >>>>> down lists, using command-down to open and command-up to close etc.
> As
> >>>>>
> >>> soon
> >>>>> as I press command-2, I am right in that list view so don't need to
> >>> navigate
> >>>>> to it, and the same is true if I use one of the keystrokes to get to
> >>>>> specific folders.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In short, I am saying what they say for every operating system:
> learn
> >>> both
> >>>>> your screen reader and the operating system if you want to use it at
> >>> all
> >>>>> efficiently.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers
> >>>>> Dave
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 27 Feb 2014, at 09:45, Lee Jones <leejo...@sky.com<javascript:>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Dear List I wondered if some kind soul could explain the concept of
> >>>>>> interaction on the mac. On podcasts you get taught how to use it
> but
> >>>>>>
> >>> not
> >>>>>> what the underlying premise is behind it. What are the benefits of
> >>>>>> setting up a screen reader this way. I find interaction an
> >>> irritation.
> >>>>>> On windows in outlook I'm immediately in the messages list I don't
> >>> have to
> >>>>>> interact with the list first. To me it just feels like interaction
> is
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> always another keystroke between me and where I want to get to.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Many Thanks Lee
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Twitter: CTurner1980
> >>>> My blog:
> >>>> http://catherineturner.wordpress.com
> >>>>
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> >
> >
> > --
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> > My blog:
> > http://catherineturner.wordpress.com
> >
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