Hello. If you're running Snow Leopard and you have Voiceover set to allow it to be controled by Apple Script, you can hit option+t to check the time.
On Oct 21, 2009, at 8:16 PM, peter apgar wrote: > > well said all, > > there are several cool factors for the mac os. one of which is the > fact that we don't have to pay extra for the accessibility. however > the largest down fall is the majority of work places do not support > OSX. for this reason alone i only have limited time to explore its > virtues. i will second the same issues that Donna posted > previously. additionally i have found that there is a lot more > interaction for simple tasks. double the key strokes for the same > actions as in ms is just a minor peev. i am quite worried that > running two or possibly three systems may become overwhelming when > begining a graduate program. i guess only time will tell. has any > one written code for a quick check of the time? > > Have good evening, > > Pete > On Oct 21, 2009, at 11:51 AM, May McDonald wrote: > >> >> Hi all, I guess I'll jump in on this thread as well. I haven't had >> my >> mac for 2 months yet, but pretty close. >> >> I'm amazed that I was able to make the switch so easily to the mac. >> In fact, now whenever I have to use a windows machine I finder it a >> little harder to think of the windows commands because they aren't >> used by me all the time anymore, smile. >> >> I will be putting windows 7 on this mac but again it won't be used >> all >> the time, only for scanning because I liked my scanning software for >> windows and to play games. Other than that, it will be hidden behind >> mac. >> >> I'm glad I made the switch and now go back to the basics and figure >> out how sly and vo work, lol. >> On 2009-10-21, at 8:41 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: >> >>> >>> Wow, Nic, you are a determined soul! :) I'm glad that after all you >>> had to go through with the install, the Mac turned out to suit your >>> needs. >>> >>> You people who have taken so readily to web-browsing on the Mac, >>> fascinate me. I keep playing with it, hoping to come to the same >>> conclusion, but it just doesn't happen. For example, I am currently >>> job-hunting, and the other night, received a job match from a site I >>> am registered with. When Safari loaded the page and auto-read, it >>> read everything just as you would expect. But then, I decided I >>> wanted to take a second look at the preferred qualifications. I >>> couldn't find them to save my soul! I arrowed around, I interacted >>> with stuff, and nothing. So, I booted up my Pc, went into IE, and >>> found what I was looking for in two seconds. And I still have no >>> clue >>> what I should have done to locate that info in Safari. I often feel >>> like because of all the interacting and stuff, that viewing a >>> webpage >>> in Safari is like looking at it through tinted glass or through a >>> veil >>> that only lets you see the outline of what you're looking at. Links >>> of course are no problem, it's the text content that is often very >>> difficult to locate. >>> >>> I highly recommend the iphone, I've found it to be a delightful >>> little >>> toy, um, I mean, device. *grin* >>> Cheers, >>> Donna >>> On Oct 21, 2009, at 11:03 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Definitely quite an interesting story. >>>> >>>> I got my Mac on August 1. It was actually an odd experience. I went >>>> to >>>> an Apple store a couple weeks prior to my purchase just to try it >>>> out. >>>> I had attempted to use OS X 10.4, Tiger in the past at an institute >>>> for the blind, but I actually didn't like it. I thought it was >>>> quite >>>> literally a pile of crap. >>>> >>>> I start listening to podcasts that sighted and blind users have >>>> done >>>> for the Macintosh, and figure I'll give it another shot. I finally >>>> decided to purchase a Mac, because I had frankly become extremely >>>> frustrated with Windows and most certainly Vista. XP has always >>>> been >>>> my favorite if I do have to use Windows. I'd become tired of how >>>> many >>>> things you needed for Windows to work efficiently. Sometimes you >>>> had >>>> to worry about corrupted files, leftovers from previously installed >>>> applications, that sort of thing not to mention the registry. The >>>> headache. >>>> >>>> So I decided to take the plunge. >>>> >>>> I read through the entire VoiceOver manual the day before I went >>>> back >>>> to the store, and wrote down notes for the things I figured I'd >>>> mostly >>>> be using for a while. When I arrived at the store, I went to try it >>>> out again to make sure a Mac would be what I desired. It definitely >>>> was. So much that, in fact, that even though they only had a >>>> showroom >>>> floor model at the time, I grabbed it. The cleaned it off >>>> thoroughly, >>>> wrapped it up and tossed the DVDs I'd need in the box. I was happy. >>>> So >>>> very happy. >>>> >>>> I arrive home, and I'm practically tingling with excitement. I >>>> almost >>>> rip the box apart (taking care of the DVDs of course), get out my >>>> shiny Macbook and hook it up. >>>> >>>> Oh no! >>>> >>>> What I did know was that I had to reinstall it, but I didn't >>>> care. I >>>> didn't want any of that junk on it they had installed to advertise. >>>> So >>>> i went ahead. I rebooted it, held down the C-key when the >>>> installation >>>> DVD had been sucked into the Mac and I heard the startup sound. It >>>> displayed the finder and spat out the DVD. Literally. So I decided >>>> that apparently wasn't working for whatever reason. I located the >>>> installer DVD in the finder and open it. Authentication. God dang >>>> it! >>>> Behold the password box. I was required to enter a password to >>>> proceed. Of course, the Macbook had not been set to require a >>>> password >>>> at login. >>>> >>>> I call them at the store, and ask them for a password. I told them >>>> the >>>> C-key solution had not worked to boot from the DVD, and they >>>> promptly >>>> complied with my request. They gave me several passwords to enter, >>>> and >>>> I did. >>>> >>>> "The name or password you entered is incorrect." >>>> >>>> I went back to the store, and they had a look at it. Most annoying >>>> of >>>> all was that finally, the C-key actually seemed to work. I was >>>> installing it when I got home. By this point, I was like a kid on >>>> his >>>> birthday. >>>> >>>> I thought I'd share my experience with all of you on the list. >>>> Yes, I >>>> am aware it's probably quite long-winded. But what can you do? I do >>>> run Windows as a virtual machine, but only to MUD. I do sometimes >>>> find >>>> it kind of annoying having to run two programs just to scan and >>>> recognize the image. That is why I liked Omnipage, and there has to >>>> be >>>> a solution out there that does exactly the same. >>>> >>>> As for my web browsing experience, everything is much more smooth >>>> and >>>> responsive. I can easily find what I want by using the search >>>> feature >>>> in VoiceOver, and ever since Leopard was released the web rotor >>>> makes >>>> it even easier, not to mention Auto web spots. So yes, I do use >>>> Windows. Rarely, but I do. And I'm definitely not ashamed to admit >>>> it. >>>> But if a MUD client was accessible to VoiceOver, I would not touch >>>> it >>>> again. I've found my experience with Mac has not only been >>>> productive, >>>> but fun and enjoyable where as with Windows, I wanted to throw the >>>> machine through the window half the time I was using it due to >>>> freezes, driver errors and so-forth. >>>> >>>> Well, I think I'm done now. I want an iPhone, now that you mention >>>> it, >>>> but at the same time you don't always need to have the latest and >>>> greatest. And I need to realize that. :P. Yes, I loved the iPhone >>>> and >>>> I'm used to the gestures since I use my trackpad quite a lot, but >>>> at >>>> the same time, I need a phone for text messaging and phone calls. >>>> That >>>> is about it. It'll probably be faster to accomplish those tasks >>>> with >>>> the iPhone, I have no doubt about it. Maybe one day I'll even get >>>> one. >>>> But when I find a really good reason except for all the apps you >>>> can >>>> seemingly install with no issues, perfectly usable, then I won't >>>> buy >>>> one. Besides, who wants to pay $99.95 for an iPhone plan in >>>> Denmark? >>>> Not me. >>>> >>>> Have a great afternoon, folks. I at least know those living in the >>>> Eastern timezone are approaching lunch time. :) >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Nic >>>> Skype: Kvalme >>>> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk >>>> AIM: cincinster >>>> yahoo Messenger: cin368 >>>> Facebook Profile >>>> My Twitter >>>> >>>> On Oct 21, 2009, at 4:17 PM, Donna Goodin wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I Thought I'd weigh in here, since I got my Mac around the same >>>>> time >>>>> almost, I'm going on three months now. >>>>> >>>>> I agree with Anouk, and would add that I often find it's easier to >>>>> use my PC for work-related tasks. As I mentioned earlier, I use >>>>> the >>>>> ap Blackboard, which I have to use Windows for, as Safari isn't >>>>> currently supported.. Since I'm logged into Blackboard most days, >>>>> that >>>>> sort of automatically means I'm using my PC, and the Mac gets >>>>> relegated to after-hours. >>>>> >>>>> I also still strongly prefer web-browsing on my PC. I've had so >>>>> many >>>>> experiences where on the Mac I simply cannot locate an item that I >>>>> know is on a certain page. This never happens to me on the PC. I >>>>> find >>>>> that when browsing, I can do things in half the time on my PC, and >>>>> sometimes on the Mac, even after spending the extra time, I don't >>>>> find >>>>> what I'm looking for, and end up going back to the PC anyway. >>>>> >>>>> I'm an avid reader, and so do a lot of scanning. I really don't >>>>> like >>>>> the idea of having to use two separate programs, one for scanning >>>>> and >>>>> one for the OCR, especially when I have one program on my PC that >>>>> will >>>>> do both jobs quite nicely. This of course isn't an Apple issue, >>>>> but I >>>>> do think that for many of us who are blind, the lack of a good >>>>> solid >>>>> scanning/ocr option, is a real obstacle in terms of seeing the Mac >>>>> as >>>>> a PC replacement. >>>>> >>>>> Like Anouk, I've also pretty much decided to keep both a Mac and a >>>>> PC. at least for now, though I confess I'm tempted some days to >>>>> just >>>>> go back to my PC, in the interest of running just one OS on one >>>>> computer. When I got my Mac, I had hoped not to upgrade to JAWS >>>>> 11 >>>>> and Windows 7, but it looks like I'll be getting both. I use my PC >>>>> for >>>>> work, for scanning, and for most of my web browsing, which is 90% >>>>> of >>>>> what I do. I like the Mac a lot. I like that VO is built in, I >>>>> like >>>>> the speed and responsiveness of the Mac, I like the fact that it >>>>> doesn't take a year to boot or load an ap, and I like working with >>>>> Itunes (I'm still running 8.2.), and I think the Mac seems to be >>>>> far >>>>> superior in how it works with Media. But the PC is what I go to >>>>> for >>>>> the things I really need to get done. I think for me, my >>>>> experience >>>>> with the Mac reflects my experience with the iphone. When I >>>>> compare >>>>> my iphone with my old Windows Mobile phone, the iphone is much >>>>> more >>>>> fun! I love the aps, the games, the ability to quickly do things >>>>> like >>>>> check weather, whereas my WM phone was loaded with all kinds of >>>>> practical stuff for editing documents spreadsheets, powerpoint, >>>>> and >>>>> so >>>>> on. I don't want to do any of that stuff on my phone, so for me, >>>>> the >>>>> iphone is by far the better fit. but when it comes to a computer, >>>>> it >>>>> cuts the other way, and I find myself favoring the PC which seems >>>>> to >>>>> lend itself more to the day-to-day things I need to get done. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Donna >>>>> On Oct 21, 2009, at 5:05 AM, Nicolai Svendsen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi again folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, broadcasts can certainly be done. Nicecast from Rogue Amoeba >>>>>> http://rogueamoeba.com >>>>>> works extremely well. The only issue seems to be the effects >>>>>> scroll >>>>>> area, but I hope they'll be working on that. Otherwise, it works >>>>>> ridiculously well, in fact, and I have nothing to complain about. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not exactly sure about your Thumbkey thing. I don't get it. >>>>>> If >>>>>> you >>>>>> can elaborate? Maybe I'm being dense here. :). >>>>>> >>>>>> As for VLC, I've never actually tried it out, and I personally >>>>>> love >>>>>> using Safari for web browsing. For me, everything is much >>>>>> faster. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, which braille display are you using? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Nic >>>>>> Skype: Kvalme >>>>>> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk >>>>>> AIM: cincinster >>>>>> yahoo Messenger: cin368 >>>>>> Facebook Profile >>>>>> My Twitter >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:22 AM, Tony Bernedal wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi again. >>>>>>> Wow. Echomac, never heard of it but when I google it I found >>>>>>> http://echomac.sourceforge.net/ >>>>>>> I'll try it when I'm back home from work. >>>>>>> Anouk, I had a fire dtv reciever and used it with dvb viewer on >>>>>>> windows and Eye tv have driver for it so I gave it a try but it >>>>>>> doesn't work as I want at the moment. >>>>>>> I have readiris on the disk and I'm going to try it out and see >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> works with swedish language and so on. >>>>>>> I have heard of some broadcast tools for mac but at the moment I >>>>>>> haven't looked in to it. I don't broadcast at the moment so it >>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>> have so high priority. I still have my studio pc sitting under >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> desk so I can use stationplaylist and all the broadcast stuff >>>>>>> if I >>>>>>> want to. >>>>>>> Regards Tony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2009/10/21, a radix <anou...@home.nl>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey Tony, Nice to hear from you! (the world is a small place) >>>>>>>> Funny >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> started our mac journey at the seem time. I am curious, can you >>>>>>>> broadcast on >>>>>>>> the mac? I guess otsjuke wont work and obiously shoutcast wont >>>>>>>> either. I was >>>>>>>> thinking of running windows with vmware but now I am just >>>>>>>> thinking >>>>>>>> to ask my >>>>>>>> brother to help me install windows 7 via bootcamp instead. Has >>>>>>>> anyone got >>>>>>>> experience with installing windows via bootcamp as dual boot? >>>>>>>> Is >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> diffucult? I presume the drivers for windows 7 for the macbook >>>>>>>> pro >>>>>>>> will be >>>>>>>> available from apple? I still want to try vuescan an dreadiris, >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> fact i >>>>>>>> have the programs on my computer bu tI want to wait till hp >>>>>>>> releases the >>>>>>>> drivers for my scanner that are native to sl, also I hope by >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> time abbyy >>>>>>>> will have released a demo of finereader for the mac that is >>>>>>>> native >>>>>>>> to sl. I >>>>>>>> am just concerned that either adf wont work, scanning iwll be >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> slow or >>>>>>>> dutch character recognition wont be as good as omnipage. >>>>>>>> I am surprised that you also have the thumbkey problem, i >>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>> it was >>>>>>>> something stupid on my part, corrupt install whatever. I guess >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> will both >>>>>>>> have to mail apple accessibility about this. >>>>>>>> So, you are using a tv tuner with your mac? This is the next >>>>>>>> thing >>>>>>>> i want to >>>>>>>> taccle since now I have an analog tv standing on my desk and it >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> taking up >>>>>>>> space that I could use otherwise. I did have digital tv in the >>>>>>>> past >>>>>>>> bu tI >>>>>>>> had a lot of trouble with it and in the end just went back to >>>>>>>> analog. There >>>>>>>> are not that many tuners for the mac I think (analog or >>>>>>>> otherwise) >>>>>>>> and I >>>>>>>> guess even less that are available in Europe. Which do you >>>>>>>> use? I >>>>>>>> guess as >>>>>>>> long as I get one with a remote things will be ok (if it indeed >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> find the >>>>>>>> channels). >>>>>>>> I too LOVE the sleep features of the mac, i never turn mine >>>>>>>> off, >>>>>>>> just close >>>>>>>> the lid and thats it. >>>>>>>> Greetings, Anouk, >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Tony Bernedal" <t...@bernedal.net> >>>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:16 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: my 2 months with a mac >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Anouk. >>>>>>>>> I have also used my mac for around 3 months now, and like >>>>>>>>> you I >>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>> use windows for a couple of things. I trying to get the >>>>>>>>> scanning >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> ocr to work on the mac but for now windows and omnipage have >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> jobb. I had a license for windows xp lying on the shelf from a >>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>> longer working laptop and I installed xp with vmware as a >>>>>>>>> virtual >>>>>>>>> machine and doing my scanning there and it works good but the >>>>>>>>> virtual >>>>>>>>> machine is very slow. I also use windows for Echolink, wich >>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>> ham-radio software wich don't exist on the mac. Also the >>>>>>>>> software >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> setup and program my hamradio stations is only windows >>>>>>>>> programs. >>>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>> very happy mac user now and after some updates to snow leopard >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> problems with it is gone. >>>>>>>>> I hope the issue with the thumbkey on your display can be >>>>>>>>> solved. I >>>>>>>>> have same issue with alva satelite. >>>>>>>>> I also have a battle with EyeTV software wich for some odd >>>>>>>>> reason >>>>>>>>> doesn't find my tv channels on the cable network. And it is >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>> tricky to use with VO. I use VLC for webradio and movies and >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> works >>>>>>>>> great (vlc version 1.x doesn't work under windows and linux at >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> with screenreader, only on mac, great!). >>>>>>>>> And I also like the speed, starting my windows pc here at >>>>>>>>> works >>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>> forever and the mac is at the desktop in almost 0 time. And, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> sleep >>>>>>>>> works well too. >>>>>>>>> So I'm happy with my mac system. >>>>>>>>> Good luck with your mac! >>>>>>>>> Regards Tony >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2009/10/21, a radix <anou...@home.nl>: >>>>>>>>>> Hello, I have been using my mac for about 2 months now >>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> although at home I still often use my pc and I will explain >>>>>>>>>> below >>>>>>>>>> why. In >>>>>>>>>> general my experiences with the mac have been very positive >>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>> after >>>>>>>>>> installing snow leopard. I can use skype and msn just as well >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> on my >>>>>>>>>> pc. >>>>>>>>>> And after I dumped itunes and started using vlc instead >>>>>>>>>> watching >>>>>>>>>> movies >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> listening to music became a breeze. I recently bought apples >>>>>>>>>> office suite >>>>>>>>>> because I prefer that over using textedit or the free text >>>>>>>>>> editors/office >>>>>>>>>> suits that are available. I am also intending to go and use >>>>>>>>>> garage band >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> the future if I can get that working with my yamaha >>>>>>>>>> keyboard. I >>>>>>>>>> like the >>>>>>>>>> built-in speakers and sound quality alhtough listening >>>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>>> its sound >>>>>>>>>> output with my own in ear monitors is nothing special. I >>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>> find using >>>>>>>>>> the internet on the mac a bit mor ework then i did while >>>>>>>>>> using >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> pc and >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> goes a bit slower also when reading docucments i notice >>>>>>>>>> that I >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> endlessly use the right thumb key on my braille display to >>>>>>>>>> continue >>>>>>>>>> reading, >>>>>>>>>> eventually i have to press the right arrow on my normal >>>>>>>>>> keyboard >>>>>>>>>> if I >>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>> to read onm. This does become irritating after a while if you >>>>>>>>>> need to >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>> long documents. >>>>>>>>>> At home I still mostly use my windows pc although i now have >>>>>>>>>> gotten mail >>>>>>>>>> working on the mac as well because 1. I use omnipage pro 16 >>>>>>>>>> under >>>>>>>>>> windows >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> scan my books for school, while I know that there are some >>>>>>>>>> scanning >>>>>>>>>> solutions for the mac that i will probbably try once the hp >>>>>>>>>> drivers for >>>>>>>>>> sl >>>>>>>>>> have been released I just dont know if they will be as good >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> easy as >>>>>>>>>> using omnipage pro 16 and am a bit hesistant to try it >>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> that (I >>>>>>>>>> really really hope that a full version of finereader will >>>>>>>>>> eventually be >>>>>>>>>> released for the mac since I have heard it can rival omnipage >>>>>>>>>> pro). >>>>>>>>>> Secondly there is filesharing, i will be brief. Ftp does work >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> the mac >>>>>>>>>> with transmit which I rather like although I have not >>>>>>>>>> registered >>>>>>>>>> it yet, >>>>>>>>>> questions i asked its support team went unanswered. Usenet >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>> works but >>>>>>>>>> udner windows I preferred to use other programs which are not >>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> the mac. >>>>>>>>>> The third point is playing games which I do a lot on the pec >>>>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>>>> interactive fiction and muds. There is an interpreter for >>>>>>>>>> interactive >>>>>>>>>> fiction called zoom which I tried and although I can open >>>>>>>>>> games >>>>>>>>>> with it >>>>>>>>>> saved games were a problem for me since I could not open a >>>>>>>>>> saved >>>>>>>>>> game >>>>>>>>>> file >>>>>>>>>> (made in frotz). >>>>>>>>>> For muds the situation on the mac is not so good, I play them >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>> on windows but there is only one mudclient that I know of >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> works >>>>>>>>>> under >>>>>>>>>> sl and which is still being developed, jamochamud which works >>>>>>>>>> under java. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>> is not too accessible at the moment but the programmer has >>>>>>>>>> promised to >>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>> at it, still it does not offer all the features even then >>>>>>>>>> that I >>>>>>>>>> am used >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> on a windows client. >>>>>>>>>> As soon as windows 7 becomes officially available I am >>>>>>>>>> planning >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> install >>>>>>>>>> it on my mac (probbably via bootcamp) so that I at least can >>>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>>> my mac >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> the time even if I need to use windows, hopefully for the >>>>>>>>>> scanning and >>>>>>>>>> downloading tasks I will in the future be able to use the mac >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>>>> hopes for muds as well but for now at least my mac is mostly >>>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> and in the library. >>>>>>>>>> Greetings, Anouk, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >>> >> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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