I don't recall people saying that complaining to Apple would ruin accessibility. It is how you complain and your perspective that are being debated as far as I know.
-- Cheryl I tried and tried to turn over a new leaf. I got crumpled wads of tear-stained paper thrown in the trash! Then God gave me a new heart and life: His joy for my despairing tears! And now, every day: "This I call to mind, and therefore I have hope: The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness." (Lamentations 3:21-23 ESV) > On Oct 19, 2014, at 9:34 PM, Brian Fischler <brianfisch...@me.com> wrote: > > Just an FYI to those of you who feel that complaining to Apple will ruin > accessibility which is a very laughable premise. I just read an article on a > main stream tech site where many in the sighted world have lit up the Apple > forums complaining about the loss of the side bar in iTunes. I wonder if > those people on that list are wondering if Apple will just cease to exist > because people are complaining. Ridiculous concept. If you don't like changes > to a product you have purchase it shouldn't matter if you are sighted or > blind, say something. I personally don't mind losing the side bar, but would > like to have it as an option and who knows maybe like the camera roll Apple > will realize it made a mistake and bring it back. I am just hoping we get a > couple of VoiceOver fixes in IOS 8.1 as it would actually be nice to dial a > phone number on my iPhone. > On Oct 19, 2014, at 7:33 PM, Buddy Brannan <bu...@brannan.name> wrote: > >> See, here's the thing. We *are* being treated like everyone else. Now that >> we have mainstream access to mainstream products, that also means that our >> bugs get stuck in the queue with everyone else's bugs. They get prioritized >> along with everybody else's bugs. And they get fixed in the schedule with >> everybody else's bugs. The tradeoff we get for out of the box accessibility >> from a mainstream manufacturer is that we don't get special releases or >> fixes specific to our needs. We get them on the same schedule as everyone >> else's bugs. Sometimes we may not like the priority our requests get, but >> it's the price we pay for getting exactly what we've asked for for years. >> >> Change is inevitable. iTunes has changed. I'm not a huge fan of the change >> either, but there it is, and I can still use it, even if I like it less. My >> like or dislike of it, however, doesn't have any bearing on whether or not >> it's accessible. Same with Yosemite in general; it's changed. I haven't >> really had any real problems with it, generally speaking. I mostly like the >> changes, apart of course for iTunes 12. But I'm definitely not seeing >> significant accessibility impacts on what I do with OS X from day to day. >> >> Yep. Early betas were pretty awful. Early betas for iOS8 were also horribly >> broken. But that's why they're betas. I've told people who have asked me >> whether iOS8 is worth having, I've told them that I have a pretty skewed >> view on that, since by comparison to the early betas, it's really good, so I >> have no significant complaints. Well...I have to say, I've recently had >> occasion to look at iTunes Radio, and notice that it doesn't really read the >> way they're supposed to. I expect it will get fixed in due course, but, >> again, on Apple's schedule, along with everybody else's bugs, in the queue, >> in its order, in priority with everybody else's bugs. Because seriously, if >> you think that we're the only ones dealing with bugs, sometimes really >> inconvenient bugs, you're at best naive, at worst delusional. >> >> Anyway, yes. We have gotten exactly what we've been asking for. That >> sometimes means unpleasant side effects. Myself, I'm happy to take the >> unpleasant side effects as a part of the whole package. Does this make me an >> Apple apologist? Does this mean that I'm willing to settle for the crumbs >> from the table, as it were, and am content with my lot as a second-class >> citizen? far from it. It means I recognize that my problems are a subset of >> all the problems that Apple is dealing with to make things work, sometimes >> in the face of pretty significant change. >> >> Absolutely send notes to the accessibility team. But if you do, be specific. >> If you can't be specific, don't bother, because no one can fix bugs without >> specific ways to reproduce them. >> >> -- >> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA >> Phone: 814-860-3194 >> Mobile: 814-431-0962 >> Email: bu...@brannan.name >> >> >> >>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Pamela Francis <gypsykitt...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> In the answer to a couple of your questions, ask for a company making their >>> products usable by the disabled, do you or do you not remember what sharp >>> did for us with talking clocks and calculators? Do you also know that >>> Panasonic makes optional talking caller ID in its cordless phones? For >>> years swans foods offered all of their catalogs in braille along with their >>> cooking directions as one could also read on their boxes. It is not >>> unreasonable or pompous to expect to be treated the same as anyone else in >>> the same store paying the same money for the same product. If you consider >>> that pompous, you must be living with your parents who do everything for >>> you. I do not. I've lived away from my family since 1974, then married, >>> raise two children and have four grandchildren. I've been through the times >>> where we didn't as much as have digital readings on elevators or braille on >>> hotel room doors. I travel anywhere I want to go, do anything I want to do. >>> I do not expect special treatment. I ask for what I need. >>> >>> Pam Francis >>> >>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:10 PM, The Believer <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote: >>> >>> That is a first. The general public now dictates what the disabled public >>> gets? Apple develops products for the mainstream market...and they also >>> have enabled these same products to be usable by the disabled. Can amy >>> other comppany claim that? >>> >>> We all can walk into any Apple store along with the sighted general public >>> and buy the same products they do and use the same products alongside them. >>> >>> And if we have an issue with our product, we can walk into any Apple store >>> or cal their toll free number and get the same assistance. >>> >>> Why should we expect any different treatment? Because we are blind? That, >>> IMO, is shortsightedness and perhaps even pompous. It certainly will not >>> get one very far. >>> >>> No one is glossing over anything. On the other hand, some are over the top >>> downright unreasonable. >>> >>> From The Believer. . . >>> . . . what if it were true? >>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com >>> >>>> On 10/19/2014 2:02 PM, Pamela Francis wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> I'm normally not one to complain for the sake of complaining. I am a >>>> realist. I know that we as a market are a minority within Apple's customer >>>> base. I will give them credit where it's due. They did take the lead in >>>> accessibility. However, mainstream society has caught on to the fact that >>>> Apple products are accessible to blind people. That in itself is a double >>>> edge sword. None of us want to be put into a corner and told what is good >>>> for us by our cited peers. we want general society to except what we can >>>> use on its own merit showing them we can use products that they can use. >>>> there are still those who think that Apple products are simply all we can >>>> use. It's an all or nothing statement within the cited community as much >>>> as it is within our community. If that same statement is made with an >>>> aside a community, no one gripes. However if we say anything, we're >>>> complaining. Apple has become aware of what the cited community believes >>>> it's capable of doing for us, therefore they have >>> become lackadaisical forcing us to settle for whatever they throw at us, as >>> it has been within Windows another third-party screen readers. If I go in >>> to the grocery store and purchase what is supposed to be a complete >>> packaged product, get it home find out it isn't, take it back to the store; >>> am I complaining because I can't see? I don't think so. >>>> What I'm getting at by this rant is if there is a given feature supported >>>> by a given manufacturer that is designed for us or any other accessibility >>>> community, it should be fully featured and attended to with the same >>>> fervor as is done for the majority of its customer base. The fact that >>>> they maintain an accessibility line within itself on its face is a good >>>> thing. However, if those people truly have no say as to how things are >>>> done, are they there only for lipservice? I'm not willing to walk into a >>>> store, pay the same price for a product that my cited peers do and not >>>> have a right to complain about its functionality whether it's for me or >>>> for my cited peers. We as a blind community for too many years have been >>>> told we had to settle for second place. In many cases prior to the >>>> Internet we didn't have a means to communicate with people are issues, >>>> therefore we were forced to settle. That is no longer the case. To those >>>> who choose to regale the things that Apple does without being w >>> illing to admit apples faults, you are hurting all of us. Take that for >>> what it's worth. >>>> >>>> Pam Francis >>>> >>>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 2:23 PM, The Believer <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I did not have a disastrous experience. I had just gotten a new Macbook >>>> with Mountain Lion and Mavericks came out shortly after that. And history >>>> repeats itself today with Yosemite. >>>> >>>> There were many complaints about Mavericks. Meanwhile, I worked with ML, >>>> trying to forget Windows. Finally I upgraded to Mavericks about a month >>>> ago! (smiles) >>>> >>>> I am still learning to use the Mac but it may not take me as long to move >>>> to Yosemite. Maybe a month? I will install iOS 8 at the same time but not >>>> intil both are better behaved. >>>> >>>> From The Believer. . . >>>> . . . what if it were true? >>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com >>>> >>>>> On 10/19/2014 12:15 PM, Christine Grassman wrote: >>>>> I agree. While I would stop short of placing Apple on a pedestal, as no >>>>> one or company is worthy of that level of responsibility, I am realistic >>>>> about the varying preferences and needs of a customer base consisting of >>>>> millions of people, and I am steadfastly grateful for Apple and its >>>>> integral part in allowing me to complete the essential tasks of my job >>>>> and to enjoy much of what my sighted peers enjoy on a reasonably >>>>> equitable playing field out of the box. >>>>> I intend to write to Apple as someone who continues to appreciate its >>>>> devices and software a great deal, and urge it not to forget little me >>>>> and those like me. >>>>> I think any "absolutist" or all-or-nothing statements do no good. >>>>> I decided after a disastrous experience with Mavericks when it was first >>>>> released that I would never again update immediately after a first >>>>> release. I am anxious to avail myself of continuity, hand off, iBooks, >>>>> and answering calls on my MacBook, but I can wait. I know for a fact >>>>> that a VoiceOver lag will bother me in the extreme, and the very first >>>>> thing I did was read Applevis's article on the bugs, even though I had no >>>>> intention of updating right away. I am currently content, and I await >>>>> Yosemite's evolution. >>>>> Christine >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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