Hi Philippe, "She" doesn't solve either of the problems I outlined in my original statement, however. It still excludes people who aren't of a particular gender and it's still inaccurate in places where it implies a particular value for borrowers.sex.
I don't mean to make more work for anyone, cause trouble, or to make things more confusing. There are places where Chris' suggestion makes sense; we can avoid pronouns altogether, if possible. But I'm not sure that works in every comment. I just see so little harm in correcting the existing instances of gendered language and establishing a guideline for future writing. Most of this work has already been done. When you look at the current terminology guidelines <https://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Terminology>, some choices have already been based upon locality. Thus the use of "patrons" over "borrowers" even though the database table was named borrowers, for instance. There will always be tradeoffs. I think "they" is the best option given the available choices, for reasons already articulated. > The ticket also refers to someone having written "it" for a person in some comment. If you're referring to my bug, you've misunderstood my comment; an object, not a person, was being referred to as "he" and I changed it to "it." Best, Eric Phetteplace Systems Librarian California College of the Arts libraries.cca.edu | vault.cca.edu 510.594.3660 2>/dev/null On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Philippe Blouin < philippe.blo...@inlibro.com> wrote: > That's no strawman, that's a genuine questionning. > > You talk inclusivity, I'm all for it, but can we walk the talk now? > 'They' is a bigger barrier to entry than 'he' for non-English > readers/coders. But hey, what do I know, what is my perspective here? The > stated initiative is good: the majority of users are female, the code is > male-centric, can we be progressive, inclusive... But 'they' sucks. As I > said, why not use "she" ? > > I don't send formating and commenting patches, the QA team having quite > enough on its plate already. > Philippe Blouin, > Responsable du développement informatique > > Tél. : (888) 604-2627 > philippe.blo...@inlibro.com > inLibro | pour esprit libre | www.inLibro.com > On 04/19/2017 03:20 PM, Chris Cormack wrote: > > Of course we won't fail patches, thanks for the strawman. We can easily > fix them instead. In fact I volunteer to do that. > > You're welcome to fix grammar too, send some patches. > > And of course you can vote -1 you just did. I certainly noticed it. > > Chris > > On 20 April 2017 7:16:22 AM NZST, Philippe Blouin > <philippe.blo...@inlibro.com> <philippe.blo...@inlibro.com> wrote: >> >> My mistake, I hadn't read the original bugzilla. :-( >> >> Well, can I -1 this or only +1 are politically acceptable? Since this is >> politic, really. Could you amend the ticket to also rewrite all the >> comments to some acceptable level of English, to start with? Syntax, >> grammar, conjugation... >> >> Call me obtuse, but 'they' can be quite offputting in the middle of a >> sentence. I've read some short novels with that usage (used as an >> androgynous pronoun). To someone whose first language is not English, that >> can be quite disconcerting on first and second read. >> >> The ticket also refers to someone having written "it" for a person in >> some comment. Well, that's the type of things that occurs in a software >> partly written by French (I'm not pointing), Indians and Finns... You want >> to set a rule forcing them to use proper English, you'll fail their patches >> because of it, in the name of inclusivity??? That's productive... >> >> Frankly, a much better "rule" should have been to write all comments >> using the *female* form. Clear and concise. But I don't believe that >> was the aim of the ticket... >> Philippe Blouin, >> Responsable du développement informatique >> >> Tél. : (888) 604-2627 >> philippe.blo...@inlibro.com >> inLibro | pour esprit libre | www.inLibro.com >> On 04/19/2017 02:18 PM, Jonathan Druart wrote: >> >> The patches only affect code comments so no translation needed. >> >> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 at 15:12 Philippe Blouin <philippe.blo...@inlibro.com> >> wrote: >> >>> How many of "these" are there to change? Not that the work itself will >>> be massive, but putting a 'they' in the middle of a sentence does not make >>> it easy to translate intuitively, I would think. If it's a consideration >>> (it is for non-English users, at least). >>> >>> >>> Philippe Blouin, >>> Responsable du développement informatique >>> >>> Tél. : (888) 604-2627 >>> philippe.blo...@inlibro.com >>> inLibro | pour esprit libre | www.inLibro.com >>> On 04/19/2017 01:16 PM, Jonathan Druart wrote: >>> >>> The next step would be to provide a check to our QA tests to make sure >>> we will not introduce future occurrences. >>> I am pretty sure they will not be caught manually by QAers. >>> >>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 at 13:56 Eric Phetteplace <ephettepl...@cca.edu> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Paul, >>>> >>>> English has a singular "they". It doesn't suggest androgyny, either, >>>> from the definitions I've seen. For instance, Oxford English Dictionary: >>>> >>>> 2. In anaphoric reference to a singular noun or pronoun of undetermined >>>> gender: he or she. >>>> >>>> The first usage example OED provides is from 1375. I don't think >>>> replacing "he" with "she" addresses the problem, it's still assuming a >>>> default gender. It's not too much tricker to search code for he/him & >>>> replace with they/them but that's also just an implementation issue, not a >>>> policy one. >>>> >>>> >>>> It sounds like people are otherwise supportive but I'm not sure what >>>> the next step should be. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Eric Phetteplace >>>> Systems Librarian >>>> California College of the Arts >>>> libraries.cca.edu | vault.cca.edu >>>> 510.594.3660 <(510)%20594-3660> >>>> 2>/dev/null >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Paul A <pau...@navalmarinearchive.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 2017-04-18 08:25 PM, Eric Phetteplace wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi list, >>>>>> >>>>>> I opened bug >>>>>> >>>>> [snip] >>>>> >>>>>> Before*:* >>>>>> >>>>> "Kid growing and become a juvenile, he should pay " >>>>> >>>>>> After: >>>>>> >>>>> "Kid growing and become a juvenile, they should pay " >>>>> >>>>> Political correctness has never been my strong point (although I try >>>>> to understand it), but I'm proficient in grammatical rigour. [1] >>>>> >>>>> "Kid" is a singular noun, "a" is a singular article -- "they" is a >>>>> plural pronoun. Perhaps replace "they" with "[s]he"? or "Kids growing and >>>>> becoming juveniles, they should pay"? >>>>> >>>>> From a code maintenance p.o.v., it's easier to find and replace 'he' >>>>> with '[s]he' if really this becomes a priority for Koha. >>>>> >>>>> Best -- Paul >>>>> >>>>> [1] I am aware of the so-called "singular third person epicene >>>>> 'they'", but academically object to it -- it often suggests androgyny >>>>> rather than gender neutrality. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Koha-devel mailing list >>>>> Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org >>>>> http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel >>>>> website : http://www.koha-community.org/ >>>>> git : http://git.koha-community.org/ >>>>> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Koha-devel mailing list >>>> Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org >>>> http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel >>>> website : http://www.koha-community.org/ >>>> git : http://git.koha-community.org/ >>>> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Koha-devel mailing >>> listkoha-de...@lists.koha-community.orghttp://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel >>> website : http://www.koha-community.org/ >>> git : http://git.koha-community.org/ >>> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Koha-devel mailing list >>> Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org >>> http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel >>> website : http://www.koha-community.org/ >>> git : http://git.koha-community.org/ >>> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Koha-devel mailing >> listkoha-de...@lists.koha-community.orghttp://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel >> website : http://www.koha-community.org/ >> git : http://git.koha-community.org/ >> bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ >> >> >> > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Koha-devel mailing list > Koha-devel@lists.koha-community.org > http://lists.koha-community.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/koha-devel > website : http://www.koha-community.org/ > git : http://git.koha-community.org/ > bugs : http://bugs.koha-community.org/ >
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