As a power user that likes to be standing on the bleeding edge of kicad, I find this last library stuff terrifying, even before Chris' comments, and I will keep standing on the nighties before this library merge because I'm clueless about how and even why it works. ( And I've read the blog post about this).
Maybe some documentation with drawings instead a lot of text would help us understand better. The thing that scared me the most was a comment about the project being written to the disk on opening, so you can't close/kill kicad and keep your project untouched. Just my feedback as a user that reads the dev list. Cheers Marcos On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Chris Pavlina <pavlina.ch...@gmail.com> wrote: > That's good, I just worry that if people need to read the manual for > something as mundane as importing old projects, it might not be ready > for release yet. I don't mean to whine at you over this, I understand > that this is a complicated thing to get right and there are a lot of > corner cases and weird projects to deal with --- I just really don't > think it's ready. I understand the pressure to get a release out but I > don't think we should be making one until the rough edges here are > smoothed. > > Beware of the pitfall of thinking something makes sense to everyone > because it made sense when you designed it. I find myself falling for > that one a lot too --- things are always more obvious to their > designers. The footprint preview is causing people trouble too so I'm > removing it (well, soft-removing it, as an option). I really didn't want > to admit it was causing people trouble either :P > > On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 03:07:44PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > > I plan on adding the remapping feature to the Eeschema documentation > > before the stable 5 release. Hopefully I can find the time to knock it > > out it the next week or two to give our translators plenty of time. > > > > On 1/2/2018 2:59 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote: > > > Of course. My confusion mostly surrounds how it interacts with rescue > > > and when it does and does not decide to write things to disk (see > José's > > > point about it clobbering its own backups). > > > > > > In any case, I don't need you to explain it to me. You and I aren't the > > > only KiCad users, and if people who've been using KiCad for years and > > > have actual dev experience (specifically myself and José here) can't > > > figure it out, scads of users are going to have the same problem. It > > > needs to be made clearer, not explained on the mailing list. > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 02:55:31PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > > >> Let's start at the beginning. Are you clear on why symbols need to be > > >> remapped? > > >> > > >> On 1/2/2018 2:52 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote: > > >>> Honestly, with this symbol library stuff it's been hard for me to > figure > > >>> out what's a bug and what's a confusing design decision. Bug reports > for > > >>> the latter are rather frowned upon so I've been refraining from > filing > > >>> many bugs. > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 02:51:14PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > > >>>> I just tested this repo and it failed to remap every symbol so > either > > >>>> something has been broken or this project is a corner case that I > > >>>> haven't stumbled across yet. I will keep informed of my progress. > In > > >>>> the future, please file bug report when you see something like > this. If > > >>>> you just discuss it on irc, I have no way of knowing this is an > issue > > >>>> unless I manage to free up some time (unlikely any time soon) to > spend > > >>>> on irc. > > >>>> > > >>>> On 1/2/2018 2:42 PM, José Ignacio wrote: > > >>>>> This sequence of actions is what puts the project on a stuffed up > state: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> * Open schematic and be greeted with some symbols that need rescue, > > >>>>> rescue a couple symbols > > >>>>> * Be greeted by the remap dialog (1) > > >>>>> * Regret remapping and quit without save > > >>>>> * Open schematic again > > >>>>> * Be greeted by the rescue dialog, with ALL symbols, refuse > > >>>>> * Remap dialog fails to find anything, click through (2) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Schematic looks fine, but the remap and rescue dialogs will show up > > >>>>> every time even though there is a valid sym-lib-table. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> (1) At this point the pro file is overwritten, deleting all project > > >>>>> library entries > > >>>>> (2) At this point the pro file is overwritten again!, clobbering > the > > >>>>> backup (SOL) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> If you accept the second rescue you will have to map everything > > >>>>> manually. The remapper should really take the existing > sym-lib-table or > > >>>>> just not clobber the pro file until the schematic is saved. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The close without save step should be perfectly valid if you're > just > > >>>>> peeking at an old project and (possibly much later) you want to go > > >>>>> modify it you're greeted with that bad surprise. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Chris Pavlina < > pavlina.ch...@gmail.com > > >>>>> <mailto:pavlina.ch...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 02:20:10PM -0500, Wayne Stambaugh > wrote: > > >>>>> > It's exactly as insane as the cache has always been. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I respectfully disagree. As I recall from many years of using > KiCad > > >>>>> before this, nothing about the cache has ever spontaneously > deleted all > > >>>>> libraries without warning. That's a whole new level of > insanity that > > >>>>> deserves its own "what not to do" section in a UX book > somewhere. (And > > >>>>> before you think this is all just "this UX guide sez" vague > complaining, > > >>>>> don't forget that I and many others still have _no idea wtf > we're doing_ > > >>>>> trying to drive this thing.) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > The only way I can > > >>>>> > think of this happening is that the schematic was not saved > after the > > >>>>> > remapping and once all of the libraries are removed from the > project > > >>>>> > file but cache should still be valid if no save was > performed. Let me > > >>>>> > try remapping this project and I will get back to you. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > On 1/2/2018 2:08 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote: > > >>>>> > > Ah, that explains my question mark case. That's insane. > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 01:08:11PM -0600, José Ignacio > wrote: > > >>>>> > >> One big problem is that even if everything fails, the > project > > >>>>> will show up > > >>>>> > >> fine with all symbols, but they wont have the remap done. > at > > >>>>> the same time > > >>>>> > >> the remapper deletes all library entries from the project > file, > > >>>>> which > > >>>>> > >> causes it to open with question marks only if you reopen > it > > >>>>> again after > > >>>>> > >> saving. It should show the question marks before then or > make > > >>>>> better use of > > >>>>> > >> the cache. > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 12:44 PM, Chris Pavlina > > >>>>> <pavlina.ch...@gmail.com <mailto:pavlina.ch...@gmail.com>> > > >>>>> > >> wrote: > > >>>>> > >> > > >>>>> > >>> Keep in mind my problem is not necessarily that things > are > > >>>>> _broken_ but > > >>>>> > >>> perhaps that they are so opaque that they only make > sense in > > >>>>> the mind of > > >>>>> > >>> the designer. As I said in the previous message, we've > been > > >>>>> getting TONS > > >>>>> > >>> of people on IRC who can't figure out how the hell to > drive > > >>>>> this thing, > > >>>>> > >>> and I count myself among them. Still takes me like three > tries > > >>>>> to load > > >>>>> > >>> an old project without it stuffing everything up. > > >>>>> > >>> > > >>>>> > >>> On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 01:40:40PM -0500, Wayne > Stambaugh wrote: > > >>>>> > >>>> Please send me a sample project if possible. I have > tested > > >>>>> this every > > >>>>> > >>>> which way I can think of and it works fine for > everything I > > >>>>> throw at it. > > >>>>> > >>>> The only time things fall apart are when the cache is > > >>>>> corrupted or > > >>>>> > >>>> missing and/or rescues have be ignored. In those cases > there > > >>>>> is nothing > > >>>>> > >>>> I can do because the proper symbols do not exist > anywhere so > > >>>>> remapping > > >>>>> > >>>> is not possible. > > >>>>> > >>>> > > >>>>> > >>>> On 1/2/2018 1:33 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote: > > >>>>> > >>>>> Are we really going to do an RC now without any more > work to > > >>>>> the remap > > >>>>> > >>>>> stuff? I just had it ruin another project last night. > It > > >>>>> behaves very > > >>>>> > >>>>> poorly when things also have to be rescued or > libraries are > > >>>>> missing, it > > >>>>> > >>>>> seems. > > >>>>> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Jan 02, 2018 at 09:10:20AM -0500, Wayne > Stambaugh wrote: > > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 1/2/2018 8:58 AM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote: > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On 28/12/17 20:24, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> There are a few outstanding crash bugs that need to > be > > >>>>> fixed before > > >>>>> > >>> we > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> can consider branching the stable 5 release. Here > is the > > >>>>> list of > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> unresolved crash bugs that effect the development > branch: > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1562788 > > >>>>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1562788> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1732274 > > >>>>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1732274> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1738872 > > >>>>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1738872> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1738999 > > >>>>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1738999> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1739614 > > >>>>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1739614> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1740253 > > >>>>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1740253> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> Hey Wayne, > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> I fixed the remaining 2 bugs yesterday (the STEP > import > > >>>>> one is a bug > > >>>>> > >>> in > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> OCE). Please proceed with the 5.0-rc. > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> Tom > > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Tom, > > >>>>> > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks!. I wont have time to get to this until the > > >>>>> weekend. If there > > >>>>> > >>>>>> are no additional critical severity bug reports by > then, I > > >>>>> will create > > >>>>> > >>>>>> the version 5 branch. > > >>>>> > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>> > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> Wayne > > >>>>> > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> > >>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > > >>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > > >>>>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > > >>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> > > >>>>> > >>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > >>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> > > >>>>> > >>> > > >>>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> > >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > > >>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> > > >>>>> > >>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > > >>>>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net> > > >>>>> > >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > > >>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> > > >>>>> > >>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > >>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> > > >>>>> > >>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >
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