I think there is a case for two installation packages. 1. Including JVM for the novice Java user 2. Without JVM for those who know what they are doing.
Paul Larry Becker wrote: > @SS, > > Regarding bundling the JRE, I think that there are still some > things that are still misunderstood about the seriousness of the > issue. Since we started bundling the JRE with SkyJUMP, our install > problems have dropped to practically nothing. Before we did, there > was a new install problem practically every week. You can run into IT > policy issues that don't allow you to install Java at all, or specify > a particular version, or don't allow Java updates without > coordination. You may find that after you install a new version of > Java, that other installed Java programs stop working due to the > default JRE changing. > > I don't understand the reluctance to have multiple copies of the JRE. > This is the normal case when you install Java and let Sun install > updates, since they never remove old versions for you - in case some > program is depending on that particular version of Java. If all > reliability and ease of installation costs is hard drive space and > download time, I think most users would gladly spend it rather than > working for a week getting the program to work. > > Finally, the bundled JRE is a private copy that is not available to > other Java applications. This ensures that updating it will not break > any other applications. This allows the latest JRE to be bundled > without conflicting with some outdated IT policy that the officially > sanctioned version of Java is 1.4 or whatever. These misguided > policies were created in the first place because of program > dependencies on a single installation of specific version of Java. If > every application installed their own JRE, there would be no need for > any such policy at all, and most users would be blissfully unaware > that they were even running Java the way most windows users are > blissfully unaware that their applications built with Windows > Foundations Class include a separate copy of most of the WFC dlls. > > regards, > Larry > > > On 6/26/07, Sunburned Surveyor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Peppe, >> >> This is great feedback, and I see that Larry and Paul have already >> commented. Let me respond to a couple of the things that you >> mentioned. >> >> Peppe wrote: "Setup question. >> I started to suggest Openjump to my friends or >> students. >> The main difficulty I found with people is connected >> to Java machine. >> Some people do not setup well JAVA machine so >> Openjump does't work. >> Some other "Windows" people simply don't understand to >> "click on Openjum.bat" file to run Openjump. They >> expect the launcher on the desktop (and .bat still >> remember them the ol'good difficult DOS). >> I started to give people a version of Openjump 1.2B >> with Java embedded, similar to Openjump Merge. >> Proposal: I think it would be fine to have on the web >> site two versions of Openjump: a) one with setup and >> Java embedded for easy people, b) the second one - no >> java no stup - for smart people." >> >> We definitely need to have an .exe for Windows people. I believe this >> can be done with something like JSmooth. We should add it to our to do >> list for Windows. Either that or make a shortcut that just executes >> the JAR. I don't even think most Windows users would notice it was a >> BAT and not an EXE if it had a pretty icon on it. :] >> >> I don't really like the idea of packaging a virtual machine with >> OpenJUMP. For one thing, it makes the download a lot bigger. Also, >> what if the user already has a JVM installed? Does he really need two >> on his computer? >> >> I think that a good alternative to this would be some detailed, >> step-by-step instructions that explain why a JVM is necessary and how >> to install it. Let's not assume all our users are idiots, lets educate >> them. :] >> >> Peppe wrote: "3)DXF/DWG >> Openjump is becoming, thanks to edit/drawing tools >> and SVG export, a good mapping software. A lot of >> mapping datas are in dwg format and some people cried >> the absence of a dxf/dwg import option. I always >> recomand them the good Michael's dxf plugin. >> Proposal: If Michael agrees, this plugin could be >> embedded in Openjump. >> Regarding dwg I image it is only a problem of time." >> >> Let me assure you that I believe DXF support is one of the critical >> functions for OpenJUMP and that it is in my top 3 list of things to >> do. I hope to build on the work of Michael to make a top-notch DXF >> import/export plug-in. All, and I mean every last drop, of the >> geospatial data used at my office is in some type of CAD format. If I >> am ever going to realize my goal of OpenJUMP integration at my job I >> have to have killer CAD support. >> >> On a related note I wouldn't hold my breath for great DWG support. >> There are a couple of reasons for this. DWG is a closed format for one >> thing. The Open Design Alliance used to publish a spec for the format, >> but they just lost some legal battles in the United States and our now >> prohibited from doing this. The only way I see us getting DWG support >> is if Autodesk publishes the DWG spec or offers some type of free Java >> DWG access library. (When I get done with my DXF plug-in you won't >> need DWG anyways.) :] >> >> Remember that DXF is the format Autodesk want's everyone to use to >> transfer CAD data. DWG is their money making baby. >> >> Peppe wrote: "6)Editing tools (not very seriuos!) >> It would be nice to have some editing tools in a >> "Inkscape-like" style. >> Examples, tranfering some editing tools on the mouse: >> a) one left-click mouse>edit/move object >> b) two left click mouse>edit/move verticles >> c) three left-click mouse>free rotation >> This probabiy makes Openjump editing tools more >> "international-ized" >> Is this something difficuld to build?" >> >> I've done a little bit of work towards this area. I'm in the middle of >> replumbing the CursorTool code. I hope to add some support for CAD >> like snapping, which should provide some improved editing >> capabilities. >> >> The Sunburned Surveyor >> >> >> >> On 6/26/07, Larry Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Peppe, >>> >>> Thanks for your input. We don't get enough of the user perspective >>> on the list. >>> >>> Regarding transferring styles, I would point out the very useful >>> copy style and paste style functions in OpenJump. Also, in addition >>> to Paul's efforts, I will be porting over SkyJUMP's Merge Task >>> function which lets you create new tasks from old ones. >>> >>> I have also found that Java is the main setup problem for new users. >>> I believe it is necessary to bundle the Java Runtime Environment, and >>> to include a windows executable. >>> >>> regards, >>> Larry >>> >>> On 6/26/07, Paul Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm currently working on a whole bunch of enhancements to the styling, >>>> specifically around the concept of Theming layers by multiple attribute >>>> values. Part of this is a framework to be able to define the filters to >>>> select features to match. >>>> >>>> As part of this I have implemented a very simple way of loading a saved >>>> style definition from a Tab Separated file with the style rules. I plan >>>> to extend this to allow more "standard" approaches to style definitions >>>> such as SLD, when I get to that point we can then create the save/load >>>> style from file functionality. >>>> >>>> I'm just working on the UI aspects of defining the styles, hopefully >>>> I'll have something to share soon, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> Giuseppe Aruta wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Developers >>>>> After using Openjump for a while I wrote some >>>>> observations and ideas that I had (as user, not as >>>>> developer). >>>>> I do not want to open a discussion, and probabily some >>>>> of these points have no "common feeling" or probabily >>>>> always had answer. >>>>> I want only to share with you my experience as >>>>> newcomer in Openjump, and also the feeling I had from >>>>> other people I bring to Openjump >>>>> I write them in order of importance (my personal >>>>> point of view, of coarse!) >>>>> >>>>> 1) Export display parameters of a layer to other >>>>> projects. >>>>> The displayed parameters of a dataset (colours of >>>>> lines, polygons, fill, winth, etc) are saved only in >>>>> the program file (.JMP). Neverthess, if people want to >>>>> use the same dataset in a different project, they must >>>>> setup again the displayes parameters. >>>>> At the beginning I thought that "View>Tranform layer >>>>> Style into SLID" was the function to use. I had to >>>>> change my idea. >>>>> A function in Openjump that saves displayed >>>>> parameters of a dataset to, for example, a sepatate >>>>> extra XML or TXT file, would be fine. This file wuold >>>>> be used to display again the same parameters when the >>>>> dataset is opened again in other projects >>>>> I have no idea about the difficulties for developers >>>>> to build this function. >>>>> The proposal is to have two extra functions on Layer >>>>> Menu: "Save Layer Properties to (?) file" and a "Load >>>>> Layer Properties from (?) file". >>>>> >>>>> 2) Setup question. >>>>> I started to suggest Openjump to my friends or >>>>> students. >>>>> The main difficulty I found with people is connected >>>>> to Java machine. >>>>> Some people do not setup well JAVA machine so >>>>> Openjump does't work. >>>>> Some other "Windows" people simply don't understand to >>>>> "click on Openjum.bat" file to run Openjump. They >>>>> expect the launcher on the desktop (and .bat still >>>>> remember them the ol'good difficult DOS). >>>>> I started to give people a version of Openjump 1.2B >>>>> with Java embedded, similar to Openjump Merge. >>>>> Proposal: I think it would be fine to have on the web >>>>> site two versions of Openjump: a) one with setup and >>>>> Java embedded for easy people, b) the second one - no >>>>> java no stup - for smart people. >>>>> >>>>> 3)DXF/DWG >>>>> Openjump is becoming, thanks to edit/drawing tools >>>>> and SVG export, a good mapping software. A lot of >>>>> mapping datas are in dwg format and some people cried >>>>> the absence of a dxf/dwg import option. I always >>>>> recomand them the good Michael's dxf plugin. >>>>> Proposal: If Michael agrees, this plugin could be >>>>> embedded in Openjump. >>>>> Regarding dwg I image it is only a problem of time. >>>>> >>>>> 4) Save file observation. >>>>> There is still some confusion for newcomers about the >>>>> difference betwee "Save Datasets as file..." and "Save >>>>> dataset as..". (See Michael and Uwe discussion in >>>>> [JPP-Devel] Load/Save dataset design). >>>>> I tried to point out in a help documentation I posted >>>>> some weeks ago. Nevertheless there are still newcomers >>>>> who use "Save dataset as.." ... and they forget the >>>>> suffix! I belive, like Uwe, that it is important to >>>>> have a suffix built automatically. >>>>> >>>>> 5) PostGIS >>>>> I think it's time to transalte Uwe's Portgis tutorial >>>>> in English (if Uwe agrees, of coarse) maybe integrated >>>>> with how to use Orbiscad and Openjump together. >>>>> Proposal: Does somebody thranslate from German to >>>>> English (otherwise this summer I will try to refresh >>>>> my scarse German with Uwe's documentation)? >>>>> >>>>> 6)Editing tools (not very seriuos!) >>>>> It would be nice to have some editing tools in a >>>>> "Inkscape-like" style. >>>>> Examples, tranfering some editing tools on the mouse: >>>>> a) one left-click mouse>edit/move object >>>>> b) two left click mouse>edit/move verticles >>>>> c) three left-click mouse>free rotation >>>>> This probabiy makes Openjump editing tools more >>>>> "international-ized" >>>>> Is this something difficuld to build? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your attention >>>>> >>>>> Peppe >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ___________________________________ >>>>> L'email della prossima generazione? 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