On Mar 18, 2015 10:52 AM, "Stanislav Malyshev" <smalys...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi! > > > Private emails, pressure and what many, including myself, consider as > > harassment is a big issue in many OSS projects, and for PHP too. I am > > What exactly you are calling "harassment"?
Repeatedly, explicitly, strongly asking to shut down a RFC or general proposal is what I consider as harassment. Even more if prominent figures do it. >I have a feeling we are > talking about different things, so it would be nice to explain what > exactly is harassment ans some specific examples of when that happened > in PHP would be nice. E.g., if I email you and explain you my POV on > certain topic, is it harassment? What is I ask your opinion on certain > topic? What if I ask you to vote on certain RFC? What if I ask you for > explanation of your vote? > > > not sure what can be done to solve that but private discussions should > > be avoided at any price to avoid such bad things to happen. And this > > Sorry, but I completely disagree. Not only you have absolutely no right > and no business to tell me who I choose to talk in private (and, of > course, to anybody else as well), but there's absolutely no reason to > avoid it. You are totally right. I have no right to tell you what to do, or to anybody else for what matters. But I have the damn right to say that most of the times private, extensive, and long discussions to finalize damage OSS projects. And recent events here tell me that I am right to think so. Now, you can convince me by actually me explaining cases where private, extensive long discussions are actually good and I will proudly change my mind. > I've had hours of very productive private discussions about > various technical topics, both in PHP and outside, and there's > absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'm not sure which "such bad things" > you mean but I'd like to see some "bad things" that actually happened > because of it. > Of course, that doesn't mean people should not discuss important things > in public, especially if they are of public (understood either as PHP > devs or PHP users or wider) concern. Both modes have their uses. And of > course it doesn't mean people should not follow the RFC process and > provide the necessary explanations and support for their opinions and > proposals. But I don't think we lack that, in most cases. There are > outliers and bad RFCs from time to time, but we can deal with them when > they come. > > > Now, I do agree as well that discussions can be affiliated to > > lobbying. But the key difference is that a discussion on the list is > > open and should be backed with technical argument (or principles when > > it comes to design). Lobbying, and you know that perfectly, is totally > > different story. Let be straight about what is happening and do not > > hide our head in the sand for the sake of ignoring a growing and > > devastating problem. > > OK, let us be super-straight. *What* is, on your opinion, happening? > While you call us to be straight and claim there is a devastating > problem, you seemingly forgot to straightly say what is actually > happening and which devastating problem it is? Please do so. > > > We cannot afford to loose more new contributors, > > no matter the reason. > > Sorry, but we will lose contributors, no matter what. People change, > circumstances change, availability changes, people burn out, people get > busy, people lose interest, people lose patience with other people > disagreeing with them... Tons of reasons why people move on. So giving > out such blanket statements "no matter what" doesn't seem very useful to > me. I agree the community here is not ideal, and could benefit from more > kindness and supportiveness, and the processes could be improved. I > don't think anybody is against putting forward specific thoughts on how > to do it (though not all thoughts would be good ideas, naturally). But > however hard we try, for some people it would prove not to be to their > taste, and we can not say we can not let that happen "no matter the > reason". > -- > Stas Malyshev > smalys...@gmail.com
