I did read the topmatter, but I still felt it was a concern. It's not just about mentors, that was just one example of a potential problem.
Specifically the document currently says "podlings have a right to expect active participation and guidance from their mentors" - I fully support this, but as Upayavira asks, what can the IPMC do if this is not the case and no other mentors step up? I agree with your statement in this thread that mentoring is a "best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability not something we should commit to in a "Bill of Rights". I am not suggesting we commit to anything. Quite the opposite, I'm concerned that as your document is currently written it can be read as being a commitment (even with the topmatter making this explicit). It's hard to resolve without making your whole document just a bunch of words on a page. Maybe the topmatter is enough. Maybe I'm being too cautious. Anyway, as I said, on balance I really like this, if someone smart can wordsmith it then great. If not lets adopt it anyway. Ross On 19 June 2013 00:13, Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Did you read the topmatter disclaimer about the terminology? > Anyway no podling has a guaranteed "right" to a sufficient number > of mentors, that's why I didn't bother addressing Upayavira's > concern. That is a best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability > not something we should commit to in a "Bill of Rights". > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ross Gardler <rgard...@opendirective.com> >> To: general@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com> >> Cc: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:09 PM >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights >> >> Joe, this is (in general) great. I feel I could pick a few holes and >> make a few suggestions but they are mostly insignificant so I'll >> refrain from doing so. >> >> I do have one concern I want to air. Unfortunately I don't have a >> suggestion for improvement so am happy for you to ignore it, but maybe >> someone else has a bright idea. >> >> My concern is the use of the word "right". We are a volunteer >> organisation. Telling a podling they have a "right" to Foo and Bar >> might set the wrong tone. Upayavira appears to be thinking something >> similar (unless I'm misinterpreting him) when he asks: >> >> "I guess a question that it would be worth clarifying - what happens to a >> perfectly reasonable podling who's mentors resign/go awol, when the >> Incubator PMC cannot recruit replacements? Can we make any promises at >> that point?" >> >> Perhaps we can use a slightly softer word - perhaps I'm being too cautious. >> >> On 16 June 2013 15:16, Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> Since I realize that most of you can't be >>> bothered to look at the wiki page I created ;-), >>> I'll go ahead and post the current content >>> here for commentary. I hope the bulk of it >>> is non-controversial, though some of it may >>> not belong on the page... >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------ >>> First a clarification- as provisional constructs of the Incubator PMC, >> podlings have no official standing in the corporation known as The Apache >> Software Foundation. So technically, it is a farce to claim that podlings >> have >> any formal rights whatsoever. What we write about here are promises and >> covenants the Incubator PMC will make a good-faith effort to honor. >>> >>> 1. First, podlings have a right to expect active participation and >> guidance from their mentors. That minimally includes participation in release >> votes, discussions and votes on new personnel, and signing off on a >> podling's quarterly reports. >>> >>> >>> 2. Mentoring is done solely for the podling's benefit, and as such >> podlings have the right to fire mentors for any reason by a majority >> consensus >> vote on their private list. Just don't be denigrating about it, since >> mentors are always volunteers and not paid staff. >>> >>> >>> 3. Podlings who find themselves in need of additional mentors have the >> right to ask general@incubator for more mentors to volunteer. >>> >>> >>> 4. Podlings have the right to expect their quarterly reports to be >> read, reviewed, and critiqued by "shepherds" on the Incubator PMC, who >> are typically outside the podling's set of mentors. >>> >>> >>> 5. Podlings have the right to express private concerns about anything >> related to their incubation to the Incubator Ombudsman >> <ombudsman@incubator>, who will handle such communications as if they were >> sent anonymously. >>> >>> >>> 6. Podlings have the right to express their opinions concerning their >> incubation efforts post-graduation (or post-mortem) in the form of an >> anonymous >> survey. >>> >>> >>> 7. Podlings have the right to ignore commentary made on >> general@incubator in the middle of a VOTE thread, especially during releases. >> Reminder- release votes are a majority consensus vote, so seeing a few -1's >> occasionally is expected and often ignorable by the RM should they otherwise >> see >> a majority of at least 3 binding IPMC votes. >>> >>> >>> 8. Podling committers have the right to remain unsubscribed to >> general@incubator. Any relevant policy/process changes will be passed along >> by >> the podling's mentors. >>> ------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Comments and critiques welcome. I'd like to >>> move the ball forward to a ceremonial endorsement >>> VOTE on this over the course of the remainder >>> of June, so please be constructive! >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
