+1. For most of it anyway... ...I'll say that 'design a set of recommendations beyond "THOU SHALT NOT"' doesn't seem that sensible to me. There is a huge assortment of recommendations by a lot of people already; in many cases I feel like adding more of them, or more complex ones that are different from "use your own judgement and think these things through and apply some of the basic principles such a meritocracy and consensus-based working", will just be counter-productive.
Also, don't discount shared group identity. It can be a large part of what binds a community together. In stefano's agora, look for the overlaps between the node clusters and the circles :) LSD On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 09:45:29AM -0700, Henri Yandell wrote: > On 8/9/06, William A. Rowe, Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Craig L Russell wrote: > >> Has anyone ever considered making IRC chats available (on some basis) as > >> an Apache archive? Seems that Apache (myself included) doesn't like IRC > >> so much because it is not available to those of us who because of time > >> zone or other reasons can't attend. > > > >No - mostly because IRC CANNOT BE USED to make project decisions. > > Which is a shame, because the biggest advantage of IRC is nothing to > do with the projects and decisions and everything to do with > community. My belief (though I'd be stunned if it was a novel belief) > is that communities are founded on the personal relationships between > people and not the community as a whole. The core of the project is > less the individuals at the core and more the relationships between > those individuals at the core; and their subsequent relationships with > other people in the community. This is the latticework on which the > public community sits. A community is weaker if it lacks these private > strengths. > > IRC, and to a greater extent private email/IM, are an order of > magnitude more powerful for building that latticework than mailing > lists are. Even with the necessary evil of timezones - which some > people seem to solve by being on IRC 24/7. > > >It's lovely for beating down a problem, kicking around ideas, but those > >ideas MUST COME BACK TO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Decisions themselves must be made > >on [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I think this is an oversimplification. We have projects who have > multiple mailing lists, those mailing lists do not constitute the > entire community, or the entire pmc. Decisions get made on them every > day. We also have people's minds, in which decisions are made without > their being made in front of anyone else. > > We have private email and IM, in which decisions also get made (or is > the ASF going to ban pair programming? :) ). > > The issue isn't one of decisions being made - it's of big decisions > being made. This is going to happen in official meetings - much like > the board meeting. The solution is to have minutes to such things - > and a concise summary. It's the same as the monthly board meeting on > the phone. Someone would chair the meeting, it would be announced on > the dev@ list. I'm sure we can design a set of recommendations for irc > channels that would be better than a general "THOU SHALT NOT". > > >It's the responsibility of the project participants to grab any useful > >log thread, forward it on to the dev@ list to get people thinking and > >voting. > > And yet I've heard so many of the experienced ASF people, and read in > the books and oscon sessions on management by the SVN guys that > consensus is far more important than voting. I might be being pedantic > on this one :) The important part is that major decisions are put > before the whole community before they go into effect. Minor decisions > are handled either by no one complaining or by sending out an email of > intent. > > >Automatically capturing IRC logs undermines this responsibility and harms > >the project (for exactly the reasons you point out above). > > Being able to turn on and off an IRC logger for meetings etc is a good > thing, though my understanding is that most IRC clients can do it so > the meeting chair just needs to make sure things are being logged. I > know a lot of people don't like the idea of automatic logging for IRC, > especially if it's not known that you're being logged (#maven is > logged?!? :) ). > > Hen > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
