I am also a hypocrite; probably more than most. I would like to zip around in an electric car and eat vegetarian food, but don't do it. Maybe one of these days my strength of conviction and/or circumstance will allow me to do it.
_ Cody Smith _ [email protected] On Mon, Jul 14, 2025 at 12:12 PM Pieter Steenekamp < [email protected]> wrote: > You're totally right — cars really aren’t very permaculture-friendly. But > I like to think of permaculture more like a dial than a light switch. You > don’t have to go all-in overnight — even a little bit of “more > permaculture” is still better than none. > > Maybe being into electric cars just makes me feel a bit better about > myself, even if I’m not exactly saving the planet. And that’s okay. I’ve > got no interest in judging anyone who still eats meat or enjoys the roar of > an engine under the hood. Honestly, I still struggle with the meat thing > too — I don’t like the idea of animals raised just to be eaten, but old > habits die hard, and sometimes I do still cheat. > > And yep, I’m a big time hypocrite. I use coal-powered electricity, I still > drive a gas car, and in South Africa, the charging network for electric > cars is pretty much non-existent. So for now, my gas car stays — but one > day, I’d love to be zipping around in a Tesla. > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 at 19:12, cody dooderson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I like that definition of permaculture. But I would like to gripe about >> the earlier conversation about cars. Cars, electric or fossil powered, are >> anti-permaculture. They are outside of Nature's flow. Very few >> of nature's creatures can move anywhere near as fast as the slowest car. >> Some animals can go fast but for a very short amount of time, and when they >> do they have light and efficient bodies. Nature doesn't waste free energy >> the way we do. Solar cars may get closer to nature's flow but I believe >> that the fundamentals of what cars are would need to change. >> That being said, my next door neighbor brags that he can drive his >> electric car from Albuquerque to Espanola(90 miles) for $0.61. He doesn't >> know how he does it. It is possible that the fast charger he uses in >> Espanola buys bulk electricity, and he arrives at a good time. >> >> _ Cody Smith _ >> [email protected] >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 11, 2025 at 11:52 AM Pieter Steenekamp < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Your SolarPunk comment reminded me how much I love permaculture. There’s >>> a small permaculture farm not far from where I live, and we’ve become >>> friends with Kath and Ross from Numbi Valley (https://numbivalley.co.za/ >>> ). >>> >>> Permaculture and organic farming have a lot in common, but I prefer >>> permaculture. It’s not just about growing food — it’s more about living in >>> a way that works with nature, not against it. >>> >>> Just to keep things simple, I asked ChatGPT to explain permaculture. >>> Here's what it said: >>> >>> “Permaculture is a way of designing homes, farms, and communities that >>> follow nature’s patterns. It helps people grow food, save water, and live >>> in a more balanced and eco-friendly way. The idea is to work with the land, >>> not fight it — and to create systems that look after people and the planet >>> for the long run.” >>> >>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 at 19:07, steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I have an online shopping cart with SanTan (AZ) Solar to buy a pallet >>>> of 25 used 250W deprecated PV Panels for $17/ea. Waiting for their next >>>> "free shipping" offer. Or a trip down that way in a vehicle capable... >>>> turns out the panels are 4" too long to fit behind the seats in my >>>> ChevyVolt with the hatch closed. (I tried, I suppose I should have measured >>>> (twice) first?) I can't find anyone else closer brokering these at-scale >>>> (Denver?). wonder when the new arrays Kit Carson Coop put in up north will >>>> be end-of-life for them. mean-time-to-replacement is 10yr? >>>> >>>> I'll be paving my postage-stamped sized portion of the planet with >>>> someone else's trash so they can rush forward and do some more planet >>>> paving? See Jevon's paradox >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox>. Let the next phase of >>>> data centers be under 400W-class PV Panel roofs which double as night-time >>>> solar radiators with a geo-coupled tap-roots deep enough to recharge the >>>> 50-60F deep earth temp with waste energy from their cubic miles of >>>> "computronium" (surely someone has trademarked that term?) >>>> >>>> In a decade or so when someone has to deal with my "good ideas gone >>>> bad" they will likely have to pay much more than $17/panel to properly >>>> "recycle" them. The hardened "gorilla glass" and aluminum frames alone if >>>> properly repurposed (greenhouse/sunroom) glazing should be worth that to >>>> someone? Three sided homeless pup-tents with minimal PV power to recharge >>>> a phone or even power the discarded EV bicycle wheels used to make it into >>>> a portable shelter? >>>> >>>> Meanwhile my (now vintage?) PHEV and water well and personal demands >>>> for electricity from the grid could trickle in through order $400 worth of >>>> entirely waterproof-shade-making panels? With Chinese Tarriffs, Inverters >>>> are getting pricier but a Pi or Arduino with a handful of MOSFETs and >>>> capacitors and diodes and resistors and *viola* a DIY inverter. Or just >>>> swap out or augment the 240V downhole well pump with a 12/24V DC version >>>> that has the built-in circuitry to handle the variable power from PV? Or >>>> so says GPT... I used to be "just smart enough to get in trouble"... now I >>>> have LLMs encouraging me. Fortunately it is easier to spin the >>>> power-turbines with my idle speculations than it is to go out and do these >>>> projects. GPT "keeps me off the streets and on the drawing boards". >>>> >>>> Or maybe just hand-dig a well and hang a bucket over the side? Good >>>> complement to splitting my own firewood? Put some real-life into the >>>> "chop wood, carry water" mantra? Under the shade of deprecated PV panels? >>>> full circle, like a hermit crab in a tin can. Ever see one sans-shell? >>>> Ugly little buggers! >>>> >>>> Apocalypto! >>>> >>>> Following glen's reference to post apocalyptic biospheric recovery in >>>> urban environments, I am a fan (when I can find it) of the >>>> Cyber/Steam/Diesel Punk movement known as SolarPunk >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solarpunk>.... very old-hippy >>>> vibe/bohemian of course. >>>> >>>> I'm not an earthship kinda guy, our local timber and adobe-soil and >>>> pumice resources don't need other's industrial waste stream (tires and >>>> glass bottles) sequestered into them for houses... unless of course they >>>> are YOUR tire and glass bottle castoffs... that I can get behind. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/11/25 8:53 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> >>>> Installation, tear down, recycling, and re-fabrication all need to be >>>> automated. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> <[email protected]> On >>>> Behalf Of glen >>>> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2025 7:38 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels >>>> >>>> A tech bro wet dream, that is. Maybe there's something wrong with me. But >>>> what I see when looking at those pictures is something like one of those >>>> post-apocalyptic movie scenes where a city is being retaken by the >>>> biosphere ... or maybe a hermit crab using a can as its shell. >>>> >>>> It's easy to abstract away and think about the humans who manufacture and >>>> repair those panel manifolds like so many molecules maintaining a cell or >>>> so many glands growing a new shell or exoskeleton. But that analogy's >>>> pretty fraught. And it's not merely the life cycles of the panels (and >>>> wind mills) that pokes at me. I also wonder about the bioengineering of >>>> the various ecosystems, including deserts, and how that will turn out. >>>> >>>> None of that's an argument for not paving the earth with panels or >>>> continuing to drain the fossil fuel battery. But it's just what I think >>>> when I look at those pictures. It just feels so centrally planned ... so >>>> ... inorganic. I can't help think about what it will look like within a >>>> lifetime of the kids around me: >>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004225005930 >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/11/25 6:31 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> >>>> Every so often I need to post an Atlantic article, and that time has >>>> arrived again. >>>> https://www.theatlantic.com/photography/archive/2025/07/photos-china-solar-power-energy/683488/?gift=IwTom6kf_sPDx8WzuZ66aeDqXjixawasB22Cb-q9aVA&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> <[email protected]> On >>>> Behalf Of glen >>>> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2025 6:19 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels >>>> >>>> I don't use Grok. But this reads like it's straight out of an LLM. And >>>> since Grok is the ultimate Elno fanboi, that would be my first guess. >>>> >>>> On 7/11/25 12:09 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: >>>> >>>> Alright, let’s not beat around the bush — fossil fuels kinda suck. Like, >>>> seriously. >>>> >>>> When it comes to moving the world toward clean energy, there are two big >>>> pieces of the puzzle: how we power everything (electricity), and how we >>>> move around (vehicles). Both are super important. There are other parts >>>> too, but for today, let’s just chat about cars. >>>> >>>> Now, let’s be honest — this whole clean energy thing? It's messy. It’s >>>> complicated. There’s no neat, sparkly-clean way to swap out millions of >>>> gas-guzzling cars without some bumps and bruises along the way. And yeah, >>>> some parts of the process can look... well, not great. >>>> >>>> I actually want people to point out the flaws. Go for it. It’s good to >>>> talk about the not-so-pretty stuff too. As much as I'd love to only focus >>>> on the shiny positives (it’s my natural instinct!), I get that the whole >>>> picture matters. >>>> >>>> Still, if we sat down with a pros and cons list and gave it a fair shot, I >>>> think we'd see that Elon Musk has done the planet a pretty big favor in >>>> pushing us away from combustion engines and toward electric ones. >>>> >>>> Now, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of you can come up with a solid list >>>> of “negatives” — and honestly, I welcome it. I might even be completely >>>> wrong about all this. And you know what? That’s okay. Lucky for me (and >>>> the rest of the planet), if I am wrong, it’s just my opinion. No harm done. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >>>> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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