Your SolarPunk comment reminded me how much I love permaculture. There’s a small permaculture farm not far from where I live, and we’ve become friends with Kath and Ross from Numbi Valley (https://numbivalley.co.za/).
Permaculture and organic farming have a lot in common, but I prefer permaculture. It’s not just about growing food — it’s more about living in a way that works with nature, not against it. Just to keep things simple, I asked ChatGPT to explain permaculture. Here's what it said: “Permaculture is a way of designing homes, farms, and communities that follow nature’s patterns. It helps people grow food, save water, and live in a more balanced and eco-friendly way. The idea is to work with the land, not fight it — and to create systems that look after people and the planet for the long run.” On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 at 19:07, steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: > I have an online shopping cart with SanTan (AZ) Solar to buy a pallet of > 25 used 250W deprecated PV Panels for $17/ea. Waiting for their next "free > shipping" offer. Or a trip down that way in a vehicle capable... turns > out the panels are 4" too long to fit behind the seats in my ChevyVolt with > the hatch closed. (I tried, I suppose I should have measured (twice) > first?) I can't find anyone else closer brokering these at-scale > (Denver?). wonder when the new arrays Kit Carson Coop put in up north will > be end-of-life for them. mean-time-to-replacement is 10yr? > > I'll be paving my postage-stamped sized portion of the planet with someone > else's trash so they can rush forward and do some more planet paving? See > Jevon's > paradox <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox>. Let the next > phase of data centers be under 400W-class PV Panel roofs which double as > night-time solar radiators with a geo-coupled tap-roots deep enough to > recharge the 50-60F deep earth temp with waste energy from their cubic > miles of "computronium" (surely someone has trademarked that term?) > > In a decade or so when someone has to deal with my "good ideas gone bad" > they will likely have to pay much more than $17/panel to properly "recycle" > them. The hardened "gorilla glass" and aluminum frames alone if properly > repurposed (greenhouse/sunroom) glazing should be worth that to someone? > Three sided homeless pup-tents with minimal PV power to recharge a phone or > even power the discarded EV bicycle wheels used to make it into a portable > shelter? > > Meanwhile my (now vintage?) PHEV and water well and personal demands for > electricity from the grid could trickle in through order $400 worth of > entirely waterproof-shade-making panels? With Chinese Tarriffs, Inverters > are getting pricier but a Pi or Arduino with a handful of MOSFETs and > capacitors and diodes and resistors and *viola* a DIY inverter. Or just > swap out or augment the 240V downhole well pump with a 12/24V DC version > that has the built-in circuitry to handle the variable power from PV? Or > so says GPT... I used to be "just smart enough to get in trouble"... now I > have LLMs encouraging me. Fortunately it is easier to spin the > power-turbines with my idle speculations than it is to go out and do these > projects. GPT "keeps me off the streets and on the drawing boards". > > Or maybe just hand-dig a well and hang a bucket over the side? Good > complement to splitting my own firewood? Put some real-life into the > "chop wood, carry water" mantra? Under the shade of deprecated PV panels? > full circle, like a hermit crab in a tin can. Ever see one sans-shell? > Ugly little buggers! > > Apocalypto! > > Following glen's reference to post apocalyptic biospheric recovery in > urban environments, I am a fan (when I can find it) of the > Cyber/Steam/Diesel Punk movement known as SolarPunk > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solarpunk>.... very old-hippy > vibe/bohemian of course. > > I'm not an earthship kinda guy, our local timber and adobe-soil and > pumice resources don't need other's industrial waste stream (tires and > glass bottles) sequestered into them for houses... unless of course they > are YOUR tire and glass bottle castoffs... that I can get behind. > > > > On 7/11/25 8:53 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Installation, tear down, recycling, and re-fabrication all need to be > automated. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected]> <[email protected]> On Behalf > Of glen > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2025 7:38 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels > > A tech bro wet dream, that is. Maybe there's something wrong with me. But > what I see when looking at those pictures is something like one of those > post-apocalyptic movie scenes where a city is being retaken by the biosphere > ... or maybe a hermit crab using a can as its shell. > > It's easy to abstract away and think about the humans who manufacture and > repair those panel manifolds like so many molecules maintaining a cell or so > many glands growing a new shell or exoskeleton. But that analogy's pretty > fraught. And it's not merely the life cycles of the panels (and wind mills) > that pokes at me. I also wonder about the bioengineering of the various > ecosystems, including deserts, and how that will turn out. > > None of that's an argument for not paving the earth with panels or continuing > to drain the fossil fuel battery. But it's just what I think when I look at > those pictures. It just feels so centrally planned ... so ... inorganic. I > can't help think about what it will look like within a lifetime of the kids > around me: > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004225005930 > > > On 7/11/25 6:31 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Every so often I need to post an Atlantic article, and that time has arrived > again. > https://www.theatlantic.com/photography/archive/2025/07/photos-china-solar-power-energy/683488/?gift=IwTom6kf_sPDx8WzuZ66aeDqXjixawasB22Cb-q9aVA&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected]> <[email protected]> On Behalf > Of glen > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2025 6:19 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Elon Musk and Fossil Fuels > > I don't use Grok. But this reads like it's straight out of an LLM. And since > Grok is the ultimate Elno fanboi, that would be my first guess. > > On 7/11/25 12:09 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > > Alright, let’s not beat around the bush — fossil fuels kinda suck. Like, > seriously. > > When it comes to moving the world toward clean energy, there are two big > pieces of the puzzle: how we power everything (electricity), and how we move > around (vehicles). Both are super important. There are other parts too, but > for today, let’s just chat about cars. > > Now, let’s be honest — this whole clean energy thing? It's messy. It’s > complicated. There’s no neat, sparkly-clean way to swap out millions of > gas-guzzling cars without some bumps and bruises along the way. And yeah, > some parts of the process can look... well, not great. > > I actually want people to point out the flaws. Go for it. It’s good to talk > about the not-so-pretty stuff too. As much as I'd love to only focus on the > shiny positives (it’s my natural instinct!), I get that the whole picture > matters. > > Still, if we sat down with a pros and cons list and gave it a fair shot, I > think we'd see that Elon Musk has done the planet a pretty big favor in > pushing us away from combustion engines and toward electric ones. > > Now, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of you can come up with a solid list of > “negatives” — and honestly, I welcome it. I might even be completely wrong > about all this. And you know what? That’s okay. Lucky for me (and the rest of > the planet), if I am wrong, it’s just my opinion. No harm done. > > > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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