FWIW and LLM were not the problem
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, Jun 27, 2025, 2:47 PM steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 6/27/25 12:11 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > > > Do you people use acronyms to appear more esoteric? Stop it! > > Legend: > > FWIW == For What it is Worth > > QWAN == Christopher Alexander's Quality Without a Name > > EAC == Enactivism / Autopoiesis / Dependent Co-Arising (in bottom-posted > definitions) > > LLM == Large Language Model > > M&V == Maturana & Varela (in reference to their Autopoesis) > > DaveW == David West > > EricS == David Eric Smith > > hope I got them all > > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0A++++++++++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0A++++++++++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g> > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2025, 10:06 AM steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: > >> FWIW I composed one of my arbitrarily long (and convoluted) observations >> (maybe just mansplaining) about the multiple uses of the term *Reality* >> and how I apprehend them and how I (think) they relate to the business of >> "chatting with LLMs" and the implications for the discussion at-hand. >> Maybe there will (co)arise a white paper elsewhere. >> >> However, to (try to) be concise I trimmed it a bit. I think I hear us >> talking (effing) all the way around the question of whether there is an >> ineffable and is it just "mysticism" by another name? >> >> I hear DaveW holding Qualia as the only truly grounded Reality and EricS >> alluding to the way the Intersubjective dribbles over into Placeholder (a >> handwaving name for something we all think we know, but can't seem to pin >> down or agree on). Most of us trained and operating in Sci/Eng/Tech *want* >> there to be a simple Objective which the formalisms of math/science help us >> converge upon but defer to Operational/Pragmatic most of the time? >> >> My suspicion of mystical rhetoric is that it is a most *obscurational* >> form of Placeholder Reality... while also being *aspriational* ("but what >> IF there IS an objective reality which *only I* can access through >> unspecified occult means?"). That said, I DO agree with DaveWs suggestion >> that there are things which can be perceived, even apprehended which cannot >> be expressed ("effed"). thus they are "ineffable". The arts of the Arcane >> and Occult attempt to "eff" them, though gesturally, pointing vaguely >> toward an interstice? Alexander's QWAN, etc. >> >> My working definitions of "Reality" to be found at the bottom of the post. >> >> I acknowledge Qualia as fundamental to *my* existence.. but recognize >> the Pragmatic as a common mode of my expression and even apprehension, all >> the while aspiring to Objective but deferring heavily to Intersubjective to >> interpret all of the others. EAC is most interesting to me whether it >> is the autopoesis of M&V or the vedic/buddhist dependent co-arising, or >> wheeler/beyond quantum realities. But maybe because it is more exotic? >> EricS wrote: >> >> >> On Jun 27, 2025, at 7:31, Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Dave writes: >> >> < My 'mysticism', like my hallucinogenic experience, is nothing more >> than a source of what I consider to be "real" data and a supply of >> fascinating questions—never answers. > >> >> Not clear why something that supposedly cannot be captured by mere >> language keeps getting pitched as a real and intersubjective thing via >> language. >> >> >> I am much less bothered by this _in principle_, since I generally hold >> the two premises: >> >> 1. Language is a collection of signals _within_ a system, >> >> ... >> >> >> 2. The term “reality” is a problem in general. >> I do like the idea that this is just a version of the normal confusion, >> for things not understood very well (like, quite badly), and that one could >> find ways to do better. >> >> >> Without belaboring (but including for completeness) I offer my working >> definitions of various uses of the term *Reality*: >> >> 1) Operational Pragmatic Reality: >> >> *That which affords coherent behavior—the reliable background against >> which action can occur. As from ecological psychology (*Gibson*’s >> affordances), predictive processing (*Friston*), and some aspects of >> (our beloved) *Peircean* pragmatism?* >> >> 2) Intersubjective Reality: >> >> *That which is constructed, maintained, and enacted through language and >> shared narratives. As from *Luckman, Lacan, Foucault*?* >> >> 3) Formal (Scientific) Reality: >> >> *That which can be modeled with precision, prediction, and >> repeatability. As from Mathematics, physics, systems theory?* >> >> 4) Experiential Reality: >> >> The immediately given, lived experience—the “suchness” before concept. *As >> from *Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, Varela? Whence *Qualia*. >> >> 5) Placeholder Reality: >> >> *The term “reality” as a placeholder or dummy variable—used rhetorically >> to defer deeper ontological commitments. As from *all of us* all the >> time?* >> >> 6) Participatory Reality: >> >> *Reality as not wholly determinate *until observed or enacted*—that is, >> it co-arises with participation.* >> >> 7) Linguistic Manifold Reality: >> >> *LLMs inhabit and approximate intersubjective reality. Each language >> model represents a “manifold” within a semantic plenum. “Reality” is the >> high-dimensional attractor surface that forms when enough participants >> (biological or artificial) converge on something shareable, predictive, and >> compressible.* >> >> Enactivism / Autopoiesis / Dependent Co-Arising (EAC) is not a single >> category in this typology—it is a *meta-theory of reality-generation*, >> operating across: >> >> - >> >> *Operational* → it explains the *conditions for affordances* >> - >> >> *Intersubjective* → it explains *how we co-construct the shared* >> - >> >> *Experiential* → it explains *how we inhabit the lived* >> - >> >> *Participatory* → it explains *why observation creates reality* >> >> And it gently critiques: >> >> - >> >> *Formal* → by showing its limits >> - >> >> *Placeholder* → by showing its necessity >> - >> >> *LLM-based* → by asking what is missing for full participation >> >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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