IDK > On Jun 28, 2025, at 5:46, steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 6/27/25 12:11 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >> >> Do you people use acronyms to appear more esoteric? Stop it! > Legend: > FWIW == For What it is Worth > > QWAN == Christopher Alexander's Quality Without a Name > > EAC == Enactivism / Autopoiesis / Dependent Co-Arising (in bottom-posted > definitions) > > LLM == Large Language Model > > M&V == Maturana & Varela (in reference to their Autopoesis) > > DaveW == David West > > EricS == David Eric Smith > > hope I got them all > > > >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> On Fri, Jun 27, 2025, 10:06 AM steve smith <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> FWIW I composed one of my arbitrarily long (and convoluted) observations >>> (maybe just mansplaining) about the multiple uses of the term Reality and >>> how I apprehend them and how I (think) they relate to the business of >>> "chatting with LLMs" and the implications for the discussion at-hand. >>> Maybe there will (co)arise a white paper elsewhere. >>> >>> However, to (try to) be concise I trimmed it a bit. I think I hear us >>> talking (effing) all the way around the question of whether there is an >>> ineffable and is it just "mysticism" by another name? >>> >>> I hear DaveW holding Qualia as the only truly grounded Reality and EricS >>> alluding to the way the Intersubjective dribbles over into Placeholder (a >>> handwaving name for something we all think we know, but can't seem to pin >>> down or agree on). Most of us trained and operating in Sci/Eng/Tech *want* >>> there to be a simple Objective which the formalisms of math/science help us >>> converge upon but defer to Operational/Pragmatic most of the time? >>> >>> My suspicion of mystical rhetoric is that it is a most obscurational form >>> of Placeholder Reality... while also being *aspriational* ("but what IF >>> there IS an objective reality which *only I* can access through unspecified >>> occult means?"). That said, I DO agree with DaveWs suggestion that there >>> are things which can be perceived, even apprehended which cannot be >>> expressed ("effed"). thus they are "ineffable". The arts of the Arcane >>> and Occult attempt to "eff" them, though gesturally, pointing vaguely >>> toward an interstice? Alexander's QWAN, etc. >>> >>> My working definitions of "Reality" to be found at the bottom of the post. >>> >>> I acknowledge Qualia as fundamental to *my* existence.. but recognize the >>> Pragmatic as a common mode of my expression and even apprehension, all the >>> while aspiring to Objective but deferring heavily to Intersubjective to >>> interpret all of the others. EAC is most interesting to me whether it >>> is the autopoesis of M&V or the vedic/buddhist dependent co-arising, or >>> wheeler/beyond quantum realities. But maybe because it is more exotic? >>> >>> EricS wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Jun 27, 2025, at 7:31, Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dave writes: >>>>> >>>>> < My 'mysticism', like my hallucinogenic experience, is nothing more than >>>>> a source of what I consider to be "real" data and a supply of fascinating >>>>> questions—never answers. > >>>>> >>>>> Not clear why something that supposedly cannot be captured by mere >>>>> language keeps getting pitched as a real and intersubjective thing via >>>>> language. >>>> >>>> I am much less bothered by this _in principle_, since I generally hold the >>>> two premises: >>>> >>>> 1. Language is a collection of signals _within_ a system, >>> ... >>>> >>>> 2. The term “reality” is a problem in general. >>>> I do like the idea that this is just a version of the normal confusion, >>>> for things not understood very well (like, quite badly), and that one >>>> could find ways to do better. >>> >>> Without belaboring (but including for completeness) I offer my working >>> definitions of various uses of the term Reality: >>> >>> 1) Operational Pragmatic Reality: >>> >>> That which affords coherent behavior—the reliable background against which >>> action can occur. As from ecological psychology (Gibson’s affordances), >>> predictive processing (Friston), and some aspects of (our beloved) Peircean >>> pragmatism? >>> >>> 2) Intersubjective Reality: >>> >>> That which is constructed, maintained, and enacted through language and >>> shared narratives. As from Luckman, Lacan, Foucault? >>> >>> 3) Formal (Scientific) Reality: >>> >>> That which can be modeled with precision, prediction, and repeatability. >>> As from Mathematics, physics, systems theory? >>> >>> 4) Experiential Reality: >>> >>> The immediately given, lived experience—the “suchness” before concept. As >>> from Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, Varela? Whence Qualia. >>> >>> 5) Placeholder Reality: >>> >>> The term “reality” as a placeholder or dummy variable—used rhetorically to >>> defer deeper ontological commitments. As from all of us all the time? >>> >>> 6) Participatory Reality: >>> >>> Reality as not wholly determinate until observed or enacted—that is, it >>> co-arises with participation. >>> >>> 7) Linguistic Manifold Reality: >>> >>> LLMs inhabit and approximate intersubjective reality. Each language model >>> represents a “manifold” within a semantic plenum. “Reality” is the >>> high-dimensional attractor surface that forms when enough participants >>> (biological or artificial) converge on something shareable, predictive, and >>> compressible. >>> >>> Enactivism / Autopoiesis / Dependent Co-Arising (EAC) is not a single >>> category in this typology—it is a meta-theory of reality-generation, >>> operating across: >>> >>> Operational → it explains the conditions for affordances >>> >>> Intersubjective → it explains how we co-construct the shared >>> >>> Experiential → it explains how we inhabit the lived >>> >>> Participatory → it explains why observation creates reality >>> >>> And it gently critiques: >>> >>> Formal → by showing its limits >>> >>> Placeholder → by showing its necessity >>> >>> LLM-based → by asking what is missing for full participation >>> >>> >>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >>> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,LZbu6Wk60tda0lnhKBC3CVZ4ABzgUhtLHHKv0cvRxYg2cNXWoT5raxojD0Ue9YhNi3YnJmfwuBjZxdV6LH6Xzhe6Cu4jpspjrH0rq4sP&typo=1> >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,aaOT47mBkPSxGE7KZWIz50wWljfgKnzhRB85TQFvdl7dIAPmWhWVpTNvZZZXwB9_6ViJ7bKXH6lvgu-g8sTvsyOhuAjUgm4iNHq6KW1oUh3c5QnDhvGcVIEtXLR8&typo=1> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,tBUSWKe5L9x6TJJBM_jpBTDFbsyicE4j5BFrpRayxzw7R5MBw727qH4WfUPt4W0i9cazQ0dlkjXB--qMFCV5u6FdWK8MbnNfT9kP8hLC&typo=1> >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,XAt1E-GH0miKW5G5xs6LhwisOdXdaGgXaUSZh2-vuzas1KhFzGV_evZ_6c_BSNpmLz2auz_VlK3ZHcamSyX77ZRgeRRcWryVd4Mw3-6cK_sbH18X8Q,,&typo=1> >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,xkEwyDDTtwq88eM2GTqUMXn1-raHf09y-cl9nklkdwF3YYB1SmrMLoKd5EwZi09AZUYO6BWxh4qFGTtAW6ouwR06deegmeA3ZhFjb9VG&typo=1> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,Vo2JYQZUqkssmpmE0Uv0KUrs5qM-GyipbfpYJizzXeRpqY8ib0BZ7F6GtEajG_HROHgzat0q9YUwI4kuXnxjZEETGe4wiZjoI5cWPsNEQ0h7Q3iypw,,&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,r1CwrbCZclDD-xAR7Gdy-pgF-kCWpYwd1yDrY7wr33pmA3hVBGfKDEgPoJEcqZduwR0RjQ2GUlSgERGTyHjWhNtLfO2yo37G_RX5FMM-wd-EoyqciR2z-UNVyWii&typo=1> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,frj7Mp4UMMIcPjIUq1khgp5yVlXXtf-Xqskrjn3t5EvmUMzXB0kXSMeOaSyVEvA6Uv7XVkNcWGYr9sMCalm6GHO7x2-_bs2blIBUaj1oeMWORd1c&typo=1> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > <OpenPGP_0xD5BAF94F88AFFA63.asc>.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- > .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,TG_WfjkKkf0hv-xJp1ythwiPKUhc-UksJDDqrmqOnEQPhxL3KQZcDusu9G-2TAajMdab6DWEI82UeT0YxMzhgXzmeVSVS-uh181RXT7__ljlE8S1jV3K-Q,,&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,hDH9vj_rhP6sixCc-XqLpHMkL5_4Lw5_MuBwVOvqbJMXqO9B5JpInNJ9jA_tFiFayVlKuVHp5TeghjaLMQ2WtVvmZOPtNAeqyWLiR_ysepqzIX8QAw,,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,30NRGI-tLhxo1WtadqP_UdBv3FVhjxLz8mBcSaZItjuxpu-ozSHwsicad1zQRayQkgaAOISDI4VBwhNQK9R8fM37B08fBEEnpvsyFc6k&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,OJJ_Ki_K28jT86beA3Fw93b81-Kgw7Zl7JtxDgCtsADsPwUAG1zhdJ_gw41v6YTgaWCqcM8tSyVmqvWwrQ9AbW9G5qpF-2olZIeWvsWNxjKKIw,,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
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