Do you people use acronyms to appear more esoteric? Stop it! --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, Jun 27, 2025, 10:06 AM steve smith <[email protected]> wrote: > FWIW I composed one of my arbitrarily long (and convoluted) observations > (maybe just mansplaining) about the multiple uses of the term *Reality* > and how I apprehend them and how I (think) they relate to the business of > "chatting with LLMs" and the implications for the discussion at-hand. > Maybe there will (co)arise a white paper elsewhere. > > However, to (try to) be concise I trimmed it a bit. I think I hear us > talking (effing) all the way around the question of whether there is an > ineffable and is it just "mysticism" by another name? > > I hear DaveW holding Qualia as the only truly grounded Reality and EricS > alluding to the way the Intersubjective dribbles over into Placeholder (a > handwaving name for something we all think we know, but can't seem to pin > down or agree on). Most of us trained and operating in Sci/Eng/Tech *want* > there to be a simple Objective which the formalisms of math/science help us > converge upon but defer to Operational/Pragmatic most of the time? > > My suspicion of mystical rhetoric is that it is a most *obscurational* > form of Placeholder Reality... while also being *aspriational* ("but what > IF there IS an objective reality which *only I* can access through > unspecified occult means?"). That said, I DO agree with DaveWs suggestion > that there are things which can be perceived, even apprehended which cannot > be expressed ("effed"). thus they are "ineffable". The arts of the Arcane > and Occult attempt to "eff" them, though gesturally, pointing vaguely > toward an interstice? Alexander's QWAN, etc. > > My working definitions of "Reality" to be found at the bottom of the post. > > I acknowledge Qualia as fundamental to *my* existence.. but recognize > the Pragmatic as a common mode of my expression and even apprehension, all > the while aspiring to Objective but deferring heavily to Intersubjective to > interpret all of the others. EAC is most interesting to me whether it > is the autopoesis of M&V or the vedic/buddhist dependent co-arising, or > wheeler/beyond quantum realities. But maybe because it is more exotic? > EricS wrote: > > > On Jun 27, 2025, at 7:31, Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dave writes: > > < My 'mysticism', like my hallucinogenic experience, is nothing more than > a source of what I consider to be "real" data and a supply of fascinating > questions—never answers. > > > Not clear why something that supposedly cannot be captured by mere > language keeps getting pitched as a real and intersubjective thing via > language. > > > I am much less bothered by this _in principle_, since I generally hold the > two premises: > > 1. Language is a collection of signals _within_ a system, > > ... > > > 2. The term “reality” is a problem in general. > I do like the idea that this is just a version of the normal confusion, > for things not understood very well (like, quite badly), and that one could > find ways to do better. > > > Without belaboring (but including for completeness) I offer my working > definitions of various uses of the term *Reality*: > > 1) Operational Pragmatic Reality: > > *That which affords coherent behavior—the reliable background against > which action can occur. As from ecological psychology (*Gibson*’s > affordances), predictive processing (*Friston*), and some aspects of (our > beloved) *Peircean* pragmatism?* > > 2) Intersubjective Reality: > > *That which is constructed, maintained, and enacted through language and > shared narratives. As from *Luckman, Lacan, Foucault*?* > > 3) Formal (Scientific) Reality: > > *That which can be modeled with precision, prediction, and repeatability. > As from Mathematics, physics, systems theory?* > > 4) Experiential Reality: > > The immediately given, lived experience—the “suchness” before concept. *As > from *Husserl, Merleau-Ponty, Varela? Whence *Qualia*. > > 5) Placeholder Reality: > > *The term “reality” as a placeholder or dummy variable—used rhetorically > to defer deeper ontological commitments. As from *all of us* all the > time?* > > 6) Participatory Reality: > > *Reality as not wholly determinate *until observed or enacted*—that is, > it co-arises with participation.* > > 7) Linguistic Manifold Reality: > > *LLMs inhabit and approximate intersubjective reality. Each language > model represents a “manifold” within a semantic plenum. “Reality” is the > high-dimensional attractor surface that forms when enough participants > (biological or artificial) converge on something shareable, predictive, and > compressible.* > > Enactivism / Autopoiesis / Dependent Co-Arising (EAC) is not a single > category in this typology—it is a *meta-theory of reality-generation*, > operating across: > > - > > *Operational* → it explains the *conditions for affordances* > - > > *Intersubjective* → it explains *how we co-construct the shared* > - > > *Experiential* → it explains *how we inhabit the lived* > - > > *Participatory* → it explains *why observation creates reality* > > And it gently critiques: > > - > > *Formal* → by showing its limits > - > > *Placeholder* → by showing its necessity > - > > *LLM-based* → by asking what is missing for full participation > > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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