I am hearing echoes of Rubert Sheldrake in your last sentence davew
On Mon, Feb 20, 2023, at 8:46 AM, glen wrote: > Despite the ambiguity both Nick and DaveW rely on when they use the > word "dualism", the "psyche" in panpsychism need not be dualist. > Experience monism is a kind of panpsychism. When I asserted that there > is something that it is like to be dirt, I'm not implying there is a > difference between "psyche" and ... matter or whatever else there may > be. I'm asserting that whatever it is to be dirt is the *same* as > whatever it is to be human. > > By even using the phrases "mental stuff" or "mental life", *you* are > implicitly asserting there are 2 things: mental and non-mental. There > is no such difference, in my opinion. Now, while I am often a moron, I > don't deny that people *think* there's a difference. E.g. when you > finally get that snap of understanding while running, or taking a > shower or whatever, about some concept you've been working on, it > *feels* like pure mentation. The shift just feels cognitive, not > bodily. But I would maintain my stance that this is an abstraction, a > sloughing off of the bodily details. (The illusion is a byproduct of > focus and attention, which are mechanical implementations of > abstraction.) My stance is that, however cognitive such things feel, > they aren't. You wouldn't, *could not*, have arrived at that state > without your body, or if you had a different body. > > Yes, as long as your body is *similar* to others' bodies, you could > arrive at a *similar* understanding, but not the same. > > On 2/18/23 05:29, Eric Charles wrote: >> On 2/16/23 23:35, ⛧ glen wrote: >>> I don't know what you mean by "mental stuff", of course. >> >> Well... In this context, I mean whatever the "psyche" part of panpsychism >> entails. >> >> Given that I don't believe in disembodied minds, I'm with you 100% on >> everything you do being "body stuff". Which, presumably, leads to the >> empirical question of what types of bodies do "psyche", and where those >> types of bodies can be found. >> >> You say further that: 'No. Neither the dirt nor I do "mental stuff"'. >> >> Well, now we have something to actually talk about then! Dave West, >> unsurprisingly, stepped in strongly on the side of dirt having psyche in at >> least a rudimentary form, I presume he would assert that you (Glen) do >> mental stuff too. Dave also asserts that his belief in panpsychism /does/ >> affect how he lives in the world. Exactly to the extent that his way of >> living in the world is made different by the belief, panpsychism /_is_/ more >> than just something he says. >> >> Steve's discussion about what it would feel like to be the bit of dirt >> trampled beneath a particular foot is a bit of a tangent - potentially >> interesting in its own right. His discussion of when he, personally, starts >> to attribute identity - and potentially psyche - to clumps of inanimate >> stuff seems directly on topic, especially as he too has listed some ways his >> behaviors change when he becomes engaged in those habits. >> >> > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
