Biologists are NOT held to a higher standard. But when they do just go on
speaking without ever listening, then they deserve some pushback. In this
particular context, there was no bad faith on either side. But one of the
biologists is accusing bad faith on the part of the non-cis people.
As for a symbol being used without introduction, that's nearly impossible with "male" and
"female" ... in English, anyway, which was the language we were all speaking. It would be
like using pi to mean e in a paper. You *already* know that's a bad idea. So if you do it, and the
readers don't know what the hell you're saying, it's your fault, not theirs. It's not a higher
standard ... it's a standard standard.
On 3/3/22 13:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
It seems to me it is like a paper where some symbol is used without
introduction, but it becomes clear from context and reflection.
Not clear why a biologist should be held to a higher standard for explaining themselves
when speaking to the laity. I mean their reality feels real to them so it must be true.
;-) FEELING is everything! It seems evil to me to limit "ordinary
conversation" to a restricted, banal vocabulary. That's how people like Trump get
their claws in. People should be able to listen and not just speak, to imagine the
possible and not just what is right in front of them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] academic freedom
The jargon being used by the biologist came in the form of "male", "female", "gametes", and such.
"Male" and "female", when used by the biologists means something very different from what it means to the laity. And
the biologists should know that. If they don't, they're stupid. If they do, but they don't dial down their jargonal use, then they're evil.
And the use of "gamete" in an ordinary conversation is just Scientismist confabulation.
On 3/3/22 13:10, Marcus Daniels wrote:
The distinction I'd make is between talking about identity in principle and
talking about the details of my identity. That's not a question of jargon,
but of detachment. Jargon is a tool for detachment.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 1:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] academic freedom
Maybe. But I don't think it's generosity that's required. I think it's humility that's
required. Anyone who both engages a group of strangers about identity *and* identifies in
a non-standard way is already demonstrating that they're not too damaged. Or, I'd turn
the tables and say that the snowflakes in this conversation (the Scientismists) are too
damaged for the conversation ... damaged by their entrenched, enculturation into,
Scientism. The one guy's exclamation "Gametes are real" was obviously an
indicator that the other participants would either have to play by *his* nutty rules or
wait for him to dial down his jargon-laced gobbledygook and have a real conversation with
ordinary people.
On 3/3/22 12:56, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Glen writes:
< I think they're just defense mechanisms they've learned over years of abuse. >
The defense mechanisms could be more like acquired allergies and do harm. Once one is
dealing with reflexive mechanisms, I start to worry that a conversation is not possible.
Because they would 1) need to learn to control those mechanisms (and who wants to take
the time for them to do that) or 2) claim "You [the man] made me this may, now live
with it." (and then adapt to their nutty rules).
There seems to be a need for some generosity to help people cope, but it seems
plausible to me some people are just too damaged. Does the absence of
generosity make one a snowflake?
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] academic freedom
Yeah, that's a good take. It also helps in distinguishing between reflexive defense
mechanisms and cryptic character traits. Where me and the biologist who felt shut down
disagree is in the interpretation of the non-cis participants word and body language
choices. He thinks they're reflections of character traits. I think they're just defense
mechanisms they've learned over years of abuse. In the non-binary person's case, they
have an entire non-estranged, continually engaged, family that rejects their identity. So
their body and word language is probably an example of them saying to the white cis
biologists "pull yourselves together and we'll try again later." But I'm
willing to be shown wrong if that's the case.
On 3/3/22 12:36, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Hmm. Another experience I have had while deconstructing someone with "charged feelings"
is coming to the ought-to-be-obvious recognition that neither of us care about the other, but
nonetheless the counterparty who feels compelled to share their boring feelings believes it is my
job to patiently listen to them work through their issues (even though they would never do the same
for me). Canceling could just mean "Pull yourself together and we'll try again next
week."
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] academic freedom
Ha! No, I was making a point about freedom of speech, in particularly
"academic" speech, and canceling or shutting down others. Sorry if my anecdote
got in the way. I pared it down for you below.
On 3/3/22 12:16, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Anyway, I guess you were making some point about people getting riled up at a
pub, and that it being informative somehow. (Or at least entertaining?)
On 3/3/22 11:02, glen wrote:
Nobody was actively trying to shut anyone down. But the more conservative
biologist actively claims the non-binary and queer participants *were* trying
to shut down the biologists and had clearly shut down their reasoning. I
disagree completely.
--
glen
When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.
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