How special can we really be, one of 7.6 billion people? The sense of entitlement is the problem, not the humiliation that comes from its denial.
From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 12:13 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] unplanned [sen|obsol]escence nailed it! 200% nailed it!, Yes yes yes the proud boys. I'd speculate that they came about because people generally don't like to feel shoved around and pushed aside and marginalised. Even if it's in their head. Perception does count for something. I had totally forgotten about Gen Y being in the mix to be honest. Vaping like you brought up has a lot of problems. Not the least of which is what's vaped may not be legal or safe. On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 12:51 PM uǝlƃ ☤>$ <geprope...@gmail.com<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote: I generally regard GenX as born within 1965-1980. But there's some flux, obviously. There's some confusion between the phrases "GenY" and "Millenials", I guess. But it seems safe to make them the same. I'm glad you brought up energy drinks and alternative drugs that I wouldn't have normally thought about. I'd guess vaping is similar. It dovetails nicely with both the anti-vax stuff and the supplement craze, including things like Soylent, lab-grown meat, etc. But it seems clear to me that, while it's easy to "other" AI and spend hours talking about "AI Alignment", we don't spend enough time "othering" groups like the Supreme Court. The kerfuffle about them being "partisan hacks" <https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-09-19/supreme-court-justices-amy-coney-barrett-politics> speaks directly to the work that's been done by moral philosophers (or moral psychologists if you buy the difference) for a very long time. It also speaks to the underlying claims of "predictive processing", simulation vs. emulation, explainable vs. interpretable AI, intra-species mind-reading, etc. The exploitation of our underclasses, including younger generations, by the normative establishment *is* a derivation of ought from is ... like justifying Fraternity hazing ... or Pinker's claim that incremental progress is reason for continuing with the status quo. How do we re-align the values of society so that they line up (not shared, but aligned) with Millenials and GenZ? My typical medium- to long-term answers are inadequate (e.g. ranked-choice voting, electoral college reform, universal healthcare, etc.) in the context of your immediate expressed needs. But what can we do? Now? On 9/28/21 11:28 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote: > Before the conversation goes much more off the rails from the OP. That first > of all how are you defining GenerationX? if you meen people born about > 1980-1990. Last I read that had gotten chunked into millennials or something. > So lets start with the basics. people now 35-40+ and drinking? the data isn't > entirely their. Last I read on that the amount of alcohol being drunk has on > average gone down about 15-20% . It's part of why Budweiser, and Miller > (for instance) are struggling to find a hook for people to drink. Part of > why is being significantly more health conscious then previous generations. > And yeah money as well. My parents drink a lot more than I do, and my grand > parents drank even more yet. > That has been exchanged for a seriously unhealth apatite for energydrinks > though. Which causes all kinds of problems on its own. That's entirely > because of the economic clusterfuck we've been settled with, the true > employment rate and a having to fucking struggle just to scrape by. > Energydrink and coffee consumption on average has nearly tripled. The > consquences include chronic fatiigue and serius, kidney and heart problems. > Covid isn't helping with that. Having to have to maintain on average 2 or > even 3 jobs for a typical single person simply because minimum fucking wage, > and lot of people from another generation stuck in a past that never even > existed. Minumum wage at a whoping 10 or even a pathetic 8.50 an hour. you > guys have PHD's some even more than one. you can do the math. So sufficed to > say that their is a refresh of alcholics is far from surprising. Maybe we > can, oh, I don't know unfuck the economy and reduce our di-stressers and > absolute panic inducing stress and > anxiety from about 99 thousand god damn problems we, literaly, got born > into. Not the least of which are a god damn string of lunatic POTUS's and now > one with an entire leg into the grave from being as old or older than most of > this mailing list. > > > On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 3:45 PM uǝlƃ ☤>$ > <geprope...@gmail.com<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > I still don't know how you bring "basis spaces" into the discussion. It > seems a bit math-istic ("mathy")? However, if we argue directly about Hume's > Law, that does seem a bit mathy. The essence is that, in axiomatic deduction, > you can't validly derive sentences about values from sentences about the > world. In rejecting Hume's Law, we could simply reject the idea that > axiomatic deduction is faithful to real-world reasoning. (Perhaps part of why > we need "natural deduction" with introduction and elimination rules?) > > But I wouldn't even go that mathy. We can allow Hume's Law to stand (and > require values introduction) but still talk about the mechanisms by which > values are lined up outside of inference. In other words, regardless of the > logic, the way values are aligned is with shared behavior ... mimicry. The > child learns to fear snakes because the mother fears snakes ⇒ shared value > "you ought to be afraid of snakes". And that's regardless of whether snakes > are dangerous or not, in keeping with Hume. > > The "antifa affiliated" person who shot Tiny and Reinoehl are/were > (slightly?) misaligned with Antifa values. It wouldn't surprise me in the > slightest if other "antifa affiliated" actually turned him in. Such actions > produce an alignment of values. But the Proud Boys who assaulted Alissa were > expressing values very well aligned with the rest of the Proud Boys. You can > hear it in the clip: > https://twitter.com/mxtaliajane/status/1434307985359114245 > <https://twitter.com/mxtaliajane/status/1434307985359114245> with "get her", > "fucking bitch", maniacal laughter, and "fuck antifa". > > I could easily be wrong, of course. There's a strain of antifa who do > intend to commit violence. But they aren't as prominent in the ranks of > Antifa as those Proud Boys (like Tiny) who take pride in their commission of > violence. > > On 9/25/21 11:10 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > > I maybe understand Glen's use of several terms more better now. > > > > I heard "value alignment" to refer to the general alignment between > > basis spaces of roughly self-aligned groups and other similar (but > > different) groups. I think I hear now that Glen was giving the PB > > crowd credit for having a coherent presentation with others while acting > > in public. I don't know what their private discussions/meetings look > > like, they may be near anarchy, but by the time they are on the street > > the present as a coherent, disciplined group. > > > > > >> Yes, this seems really important to me: > >> > >>> That "antifa affiliated" guy who shot Tiny is probably susceptible to > peer pressure to *stop* carrying his gun to town, much like the Proud Boys > coach their participants not to start fights and always cooperate with the > cops. The more organized Antifa groups, like Rose City *do* coach their > participants more than the less organized groups do. But the difference in > both value alignment and tactics is obvious. If you're like my colleague, > you'll claim this is a "distinction without a difference". But the difference > is palpable if you're actually present. > >> Living sometimes in Atlanta, where the past of a civil rights movement > that was purpose-driven, sophisticated, strategic, and disciplined has been > kept alive a bit more than other places, I watch historical footage from the > 60s, of strings of people singing quietly and clapping in time various > religious songs while being herded into police vans, and I am awestruck at > the dignity and the self-control. If the current movements could get to > that, at the scale of the many-more people that they include today, we could > solve a lot of these problems. > >> -- "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie." ☤>$ uǝlƃ .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . 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