On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 7:50:07 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 5:08:57 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> Gravitons do not escape from a BH, any more than can light. However, from >> the perspective of an outside observer all matter than went into a BH is on >> the surface above the event horizon, called the stretched horizon. >> >> LC >> > > Gravitons might not exist (and hence quantum gravity can't exist) But > whatever the case, how can BH's interact gravitationally with objects > beyond its event horizon? You say this doesn't happen. I don't understand > your argument. AG >
I may have identified the thousand pound gorilla in the room; the hypothetical force carrying particle of the quantum gravitating field, the graviton, which for BH's doesn't exert any force! AG > >> >> On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 9:08:11 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 10:59:54 PM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 4:45:25 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 2:25:39 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 9:43:11 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 5:55:52 AM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 14, 2020 at 4:34:00 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 6:30:46 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 5:19:30 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> About the EP; I merely stated that it demonstrates that >>>>>>>>>> acceleration is locally indistinguishable from gravity, and then I >>>>>>>>>> stated >>>>>>>>>> what "locally" means. This is what Wiki and other sources say. Yet >>>>>>>>>> you say >>>>>>>>>> I am confused. How so? About masses of BH's, I watch documentaries >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> feature astrophysicists offering their opinions, and they >>>>>>>>>> *uniformly* claim that BH's have mass. How could it be otherwise >>>>>>>>>> if they're remnants of massive collapsed stars? Not one makes >>>>>>>>>> Brent's >>>>>>>>>> claim, that they're just geometric manifestations. AG >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Black hole mass is a pure spacetime physics. There is no material >>>>>>>>> stuff anyone can get their hands on. With the tortoise coordinate the >>>>>>>>> distant observer might say the matter-fields that made of a black >>>>>>>>> hole >>>>>>>>> exist, but if one tried to reach them they always recede away. Black >>>>>>>>> holes >>>>>>>>> do not have mass in a standard sense, though they have an ADM mass >>>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>>> by the curvature of spacetime. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Generally, what resides inside a BH interacts gravitationally with >>>>>>>> what's exterior and is the remnant of a Type 1A supernova. It's >>>>>>>> unreachable, but has some correspondence with normal mass, which is >>>>>>>> why its >>>>>>>> mass can be estimated by its exterior effects, say for the one >>>>>>>> residing at >>>>>>>> the core of the Milky Way. I don't know how their masses are estimated >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> they are cores of distant galaxies. AG >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The interior does not interact with the exterior. The event horizon >>>>>>> prevents that. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Then how can a BH interact gravitationally with objects external to >>>>>> the event horizon, or do you deny that? AG >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The black hole does not interact with material outside, the material >>>>> outside interacts with the black hole. A black hole is a causality sink; >>>>> causal propagation is into the black hole. Only stochastic quantum events >>>>> propagate out. >>>>> >>>>> LC >>>>> >>>> >>>> I am not sure I understand or agree. Space-time is strongly curved near >>>> a BH. Are you claiming this curvature is not caused by the BH? In any >>>> event, doesn't this put a nail in the coffin of quantum gravity? IIUC, the >>>> force carrying particle in a quantum gravity theory is the graviton. If >>>> nothing can get out of a BH, this would apply to the graviton. Seems like >>>> a >>>> problem for any quantum gravity theory. AG >>>> >>> >>> Let me put the question another way; if gravitons exist, could they >>> escape a BH? If not, does this adversely effect the existence of a quantum >>> theory of gravity? TIA, AG >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> From the perspective of anyone in the exterior the interior of a >>>>>>> black hole is nothing more than a theoretical abstraction. It only >>>>>>> exists >>>>>>> as a counter factual situation, where instead of remaining outside an >>>>>>> observer enters the BH/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LC >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/52b942a9-fc23-4bdc-af29-51f1fbb56a92o%40googlegroups.com.
