Hi Bill,
I'm going to push back, not specifically to argue, but to get clearer on
the details. I hope you can fill in where I'm vague or counter where I'm
wrong.
If an EV semi can charge overnight, that helps. Let's sketch some calcs.
Let's say overnight is 10 hours and the battery is 1MWh. If just one
truck charges, that's a benign 100kW supply. According to
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/infrastructure/truck_parking/jasons_law/truckparkingsurvey/ch2.htm#:~:text=Approximately%2039%20percent%20of%20facilities,provide%2025%20to%2099%20spaces.&text=The%20presence%20of%20shower%20facilities,meals%2C%20entertainment%2C%20etc.)
39% have 1-24 overnight spaces and 40% have 25 to 99. Let's use 50
trucks in this sketch. So the typical truck stop needs to accommodate 50
* 100kW = 5MW. That's a pretty good load.
Sure, local PV + a huge battery on site would help, but I think the grid
has to be part of the solution. I presume 5MW in most locations is still
not a big problem, though.
But, now, let's look a short term rapid charging. While truck drivers on
long trips do need to stop overnight (or over day) to sleep, if they
drive 500 miles in a day, they'll almost certainly need to charge at
least once en route. Let's say for one hour at 500kWh. At any given
moment, there could be (guessing) 20 trucks stopped for an hour. That
would be a 10MW power draw. Now, I'll guess, the grid could be pushed
beyond capacity along some highways. Don't forget, the grid is also
going to have to handle new loads from EV cars, etc.
A large local battery and solar panels would help by evening out the
peaks and, perhaps, storing some energy captured during the day for use
at night. And, over time, perhaps it could be built out enough to be
quite significant. But the grid still needs to be there because, you
know, there are cloudy days, etc.
And, yes, truck drivers do drive at night. My anecdotal experience along
the I5 corridor on the US west coast is that most trucks are on the
freeway at night. There's too much traffic during the day. That means,
"overnight" charging can happen during the day.
In summary, I don't know enough about grid capacity to know how many
highways could handle these example loads or not. Your point is well
taken that, if truckers can charge during periods when there's less load
on the grid, that will help significantly. Perhaps most can. I can
imagine new apps that give real time variable pricing and pricing
projections, e.g. charging available in 10 miles at $0.20/kWh now, or in
100 miles, two hours awat at $0.12/kWh, giving the driver some choices
to mull over.
Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Dube via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" <billd...@killacycle.com>
Sent: 24-Nov-22 03:34:33
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
Hi Peri,
Also, trucks tend to be driven during daylight hours (not always, but
mainly.) Trucks only charge when they are not moving, keep in mind.
The few EV semi-trucks that I have actually seen here in Auckland seem to
have (at this time) battery packs that are designed to be swapped out quickly
for charging. They will tend to charge these spare packs when is it least
expensive to do so.
Both the daylight driving and the swappable packs will push charging
off-peak, where power is plentiful and cheap. The grid only has issues during
periods of peak demand, typically in the late afternoon. For most of the 24
hours in a day, the grid operators have surplus capacity. During the late
evening and before dawn, they have _heaps_ of surplus capacity. They would be
overjoyed to sell this wasted excess grid capacity if they could do so.
The trucking industry is very price sensitive. If they can buy fuel for a few cents
less, then they will alter their schedule to do so. The grid operators simply have to
offer some sort of off-peak charging incentive (or an on-peak charging surcharge) and the
"problem" is easily solved.
Here in Auckland, they often operate the residential (electric) water heaters on a
system that is controlled by the power utility. The utility will switch off the water
heater element during peak times to move the consumption to help grid capacity. All done
with "ripple signals" from the utility over the power wires to your water
heater circuit. You can participate or choose not to by simply pressing a button on your
electrical panel. You will pay full price for the electricity to heat you water if you
do, however. _Everyone_ in New Zealand has a sophisticated electronic meter that logs
what you are drawing and what time you did it, then sends this continuously to the power
utility over the power wires.
There is no EV grid crisis looming. I have no idea who is propagating this
nonsense.
Bill D.
On 11/24/2022 8:17 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
Bill, I don't have any axe to grind here, but the issue was about providing
power to charge long haul trucks. While I think your argument works well for
small trucks and domestic cars, I'd like to see what you have to say about long
haul trucks. I highly respect your points of view.
Peri
<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill Dube via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Bill Dube" <billd...@killacycle.com>
Sent: 23-Nov-22 14:55:48
Subject: Re: [EVDL] the grid needs upgrading - fast
No need upgrade the grid. None. Just need a few incentives and a little
intelligence.
There is a lot of misinformation about this, here on the EVDL even.
>>>>>> Grid capacity problem ? >>>>>>>>>>>
There is LOTS of power available on the grid, just not at the peak times of the day.
No problem what-so-ever. EVs are _driven_ during the day, and are charged when they are
parked, during the night. Provide an economic incentive to folks to change off peak and
the grid capacity "problem" vanishes.
>>>>>>>> Solar power is during the day, while you are at work. How do you charge from
solar? <<<<
It is a power grid. You put power in at one location, and you can take it
out at another. This is what it does. Use it.
If your home solar panels are providing surplus power to the grid, you can
draw it out from a location other than your home to charge your EV. It is
simply a matter of giving the grid operator incentive to take a reasonable fee
for doing this. Legislation, financial incentive, public sentiment, etc. No
brainer.
>>>>>>> EV power is no different than washers, driers, stoves, electric heat, etc.
<<<<<<
The grid has gone through decades of constant evolution. It has very nicely
adapted and upgraded with the advent of air conditioning, electric heat, and
power hungry home appliances.
As EVs slowly ramp up in popularity, the grid operators will adapt. EVs and EV
chargers can easily be quickly switched off and back on to "park shave" during
periods of peak load. The grid operators simply have to decide on which of the many
methods they want to use to talk to your EV or your charger, and offer you an incentive
to participate.
Bill D.
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