While consumer entertainment use of the airwaves is less prevalent and less susceptible to interference (complaints), land/mobile communications will be around for the foreseeable future as exemplified by Brent's call letters. Fire/police and other first responders are quick to notice and act on interference to their communications, especially in remote locations. I did some EMI mitigation in remote Alaska where wireline communications to outlying villages is non-existant. VHF radio was their sole method of communication. As the locals say "There's no place like Nome" :-)
Another less-obvious use of OTA antennas today is cellular. While digital communication does have error correction, throughput (revenue) is affected by EMI. The cell carriers monitor and log signal impairment 24/7/365 and also react quickly to interference to their networks. The RF spectrum is becoming a more expensive and scarcer commodity. The Class A/B model may be less relevant but radiated EMI issues are not going away IMHO. Bob Sykes (who still has antennas on the roof) From: Brent DeWitt <bdew...@ix.netcom.com> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2024 6:35 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Emissions Class A vs Class B And some of us still have outdoor antennas 😉 Brent DeWitt, AB1LF On 11/21/2024 6: 19 PM, doug emcesd. com wrote: Hi Brent and the group, This brings back a lot of memories. When I was at AT&T Bell Telephone Laboratories, back when dinosaurs And some of us still have outdoor antennas 😉 Brent DeWitt, AB1LF On 11/21/2024 6:19 PM, doug emcesd.com wrote: Hi Brent and the group, This brings back a lot of memories. When I was at AT&T Bell Telephone Laboratories, back when dinosaurs were roaming the earth, I contributed early input to the FCC Part 15 development. When we eventually started testing equipment, I remember when the client had to manually turn the turntable the EUT was on by pulling on ropes. The final FCC rules, however, did not, in my opinion, ever address some of their concerns on emissions, and still do not today, such as emission going straight up into an apartment above the radiator. Although today interference to broadcast TV is not the problem it once was. Everyone I know of streams over fiber or at worst watches cable TV. I am sure there are a few still with antennas, but I have not met one in many years now. Both at home and at my office, I have fiber directly to the building. Our home service, where I would be watching a program, is 1 Gbit/sec fiber right into the house, for $75/month, dropped cable years ago.. I think when my generation dies off, cable TV will be gone, not to mention over-the-air transmission. I think it would be very difficult for an emissions issue to affect my fiber service. It would have to be orders of magnitude more than currently allowed and be more of a radiated immunity issue. I am 77 at this point but mentally and physically more like 30 year old, especially with respect to technology and athletics/running. I love new technology, especially that which I have some design input into, which I frequently do. Hoping to work to at least age 100 or so. May have to cut back on the running mileage by then though, from thousands of miles per year currently. Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] From: Brent DeWitt <bdew...@ix.netcom.com><mailto:bdew...@ix.netcom.com> Sent: Saturday, November 9, 2024 20:07 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Emissions Class A vs Class B This is probably a bit of urban legend, but back in the 1970s, the first exposure I got to commercial EMC was with respect to VDE-0871 for Hewlett Packard products we were exporting to Germany. In 1979, the FCC had collected a number of TV This is probably a bit of urban legend, but back in the 1970s, the first exposure I got to commercial EMC was with respect to VDE-0871 for Hewlett Packard products we were exporting to Germany. In 1979, the FCC had collected a number of TV (rabbit ear antennas) interference from the Apple 2 PCs. That led to the creation of Part 15, CFR47 and they borrowed heavily from the VDE standard. The primary role of the FCC has always been protection of licensed broadcast services. While the residential use model has changed, the regulations remain. Respectfully, Brent DeWitt, AB1LF Milford MA On 11/9/2024 6:52 PM, John Woodgate wrote: Yes, in Europe as well. All part of the (heavy) industrial versus residential, commercial and light industrial divide. Particularly that broadcast receivers would be 10m away from an emitter in a heavy industrial area, but only 3m away elsewhere. But that was 50 or more years ago, in the days of AM and FM, and analogue TV. It's a bit different now and will get more different. On 2024-11-09 23:38, Ken Javor wrote: On the west side of the Pond, the major discrimination (for emissions) was in the application of the class A limit at 10 meters, vs. the class B limit at three meters. The differentiator was the expected zone of control. Meaning an apartment dweller might not have control over an offending interference source more than three meters away, vs. an industrial or commercial enterprise where the zone of control would typically be larger. The same kind of reasoning would apply to conducted emissions, both from the point of view of a radiating power line, but also what culprits and victims might share the same or a close-by branch circuit. -- Ken Javor Ph: (256) 650-5261 From: "James Pawson (U3C)" <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk><mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> Reply-To: "James Pawson (U3C)" <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk><mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> Date: Saturday, November 9, 2024 at 10:19 AM To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG><mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Emissions Class A vs Class B Hello all, I’m writing some guidance on Class A vs Class B and I was thinking about the Why. As in why do we separate emissions into Class A and B? Reasons I’ve heard (which make some kind of sense even if I’ve not actually looked into the figures) include: 1. Concentration of electronic equipment – domestic premises are more likely to have other interference equipment operating in closer proximity to receivers than in a commercial/industrial environment. 1. Quantity of devices sold – consumer devices used in a domestic sphere have a much higher sales volume 1. Nature of installation – Class A equipment installed by more technically competent users, Class B installed by less knowledgeable users. Does anyone have any additional justification, historical perspective, or can point me in the direction of a standard that describes this in more detail? I’ve looked in IEC TR 61000-2-5 which, although it mostly focuses on immunity, mentions these above reasons. CISPR 16-4-4 seems to deal with statistical methods. IEC TR 61000-1-1 deals in general terms with the concept of a margin between Emissions and Immunity. But no definitions for the derivation of these Classes… Thanks in advance! All the best James James Pawson Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver Unit 3 Compliance Ltd EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy www.unit3compliance.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unit3compliance.co.uk_&d=DwMDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=x5jvXqs6zbXvUyDx09FgSIgfcW4LrflXJ0OFvtckigzWlfyn7bc70vivH51Rm2b_&s=ez1x6gk9y-uHcm_JdmAU7gP63UHk8bOxnGsSBLu1a4w&e=> | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk<mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 Office hours: Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. I’m contactable between 1300h to 1730h from Monday to Friday. 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