Hi Carl Well put ... the major challenge is certainly NOT a technological one - that is (as usual) the easiest
To go back to my old favorite, the PRISM framework, it is the - *organisational / managerial* determinants (Standard operating procedures, facility lists, reporting procedures etc) - *behavioural *determinants (coordination between departments, demand for data etc) Once these are sorted, the technical part is easy r MY feeling is that we should sit down clearly and identify what OUTPUTS (indicators, data elements for ) we need for RBF and other HR management and analysis tools tools .... and THEN see how we can most easily collect the necessary data ..... To do this we need a - clear vision from the various MoHs and NGOs (particularly UNICEF) whether they really want to do RBF .... and if there is a common vision we make a - plan (with associated budget) and - test this out in a few countries (e.g. Zanzibar) Can we start moving towards this for the january workshop?? cheers A On Saturday, 8 October 2016, Carl Leitner <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi all, > > At this point, the challenges in integrating DHIS2 and iHRIS for > indicators are pretty much entirely related to governance and > coordination. The technological tools are there (and they are getting > simpler and simpler to use). If anyone is wanting help in these areas, > please reach out to us (IntraHealth) and we should be able to find a way to > support you with the tools and provide further guidance. > > The main challenges in order of complexity, as I see them, are: > > - Often the HR and HMIS units do not work in close co-ordination. > The information needs for the HR unit (and other similar stakeholders) are > different than for the HMIS unit. If there is no formal platform (e.g. a > TWG) for these groups to coordinate on and jointly own issues related to > information needs and the associated data exchange needed to support this, > than any attempt to have sustainable data exchange will be dead in the > water. This, in my opinion, is the major point of failure. > - Lack of agreement of facility lists, as has already been mentioned. > There are a couple of situations here: > - One system (e.g. DHIS2) becomes the authority for the facility > data. In this case, there is existing tooling for iHRIS to load in > DHIS2 > facility data using a third piece of standards compliant software (more > on > that below) to handle the data management, an “InterLinked Registry". > This > situation can be problematic, as Kayode alludes to, if the two systems > do > not agree on what is a facility. The set of facilities from an HR > perspective is larger than the set of facilities that provide clinical > services, for example. > - DHIS2 and iHRIS each maintain their own independent facility > lists. This is the most common scenario and occurs when the HMIS unit > does not agree to adopt all of the facilities that are required for the > HR > unit. In this case, we need to ensure that the iHRIS facilities can > cross-reference the DHIS2 facilities. There is significant tooling on > this already, again using third piece of standards compliant software. > Note, on the OpenHIE InterLinked Registry call this Wednesday (see > below), > Ally will be showing us some of the facility matching/de-duplication > tools > he developed for Sierra Leone and now extended to be used in other > contexts. Jembi has also worked on a lot of tooling to help automate > and > monitor the synchronization processes through the OpenHIM software. > - There is a third party facility registry that both DHIS2 and > iHRIS should synchronize with. This is a pretty uncommon scenario. > - Lack of agreement on the cadre, job or other health worker > classification to report on. There are three types of stakeholders here, > and usually each has a different set of classifications for health workers > they are interested in. These stakeholders are the HMIS unit with DHIS2, > the HR unit with software like iHRIS Manage, and the professional councils > with software like iHRIS Qualify. iHRIS Manage will give you the currently > deployed health workers, while iHRIS Qualify would give you total number of > available/licensed (though not necessarily deployed) health workers. There > are a couple of other HRIS systems that are also coming: iHRIS Train which > is used to manage information a national picture on the health workers > graduating from academic institutions and the iHRIS Community Health Worker > Registry. > > Because of this multiple types of classification, we often need to map > the cadres from the source HRIS system into the cadres required for the > HMIS/DHIS2. This mapping can be handled within the HRIS system or can be > handled through the use of a Terminology Service (TS) which handles mapping > between terminologies. Though a TS is a bit more overhead, I think it > would be warranted in a country such as Nigeria with many HRISs (one for > state and one for each professional council) and which is already > contemplating a TS as part of their larger eHealth Architecture. > - Finally, there is a technical challenge in that the DHIS2 API > changes over time with different versions of DHIS2. The risks here are > contained when we use open international standards for data exchange. > Right now we support the “Care Services Discovery (CSD)” standard for > exchange of the facility and org unit hierarchy between the systems. In > the coming year we will see support for the more modern and RESTful FHIR > standard. For data reporting into DHIS2, we need to make better use of the > ADX standard to help mitigate issues w/ DHIS2 API changes. Though the the > necessary tooling isn’t in place quite yet, I think we will see it over the > next year. > - Documentation. Because these tools have evolved over time, and > because the scenarios have a fairly wide range, we don’t have yet a > complete tutorial on all the needed steps. There is partial > documentation, but it needs a bit of tender loving care. > > > Note, that we are trying to pull together a training/workshop to address > exactly these issues (and explore what you can than do with the data) just > after the upcoming DHIS2 academy in Tanzania. More on that as the plans > become more concrete. We certainly would have the documentation improved > by then ;-) > > Nothing in the above is particularly special to iHRIS and DHIS2 and are > applicable to any HRIS and HMIS. In Zimbabwe they are going through the > same considerations, though they don’t use iHRIS. > > Cheers, > -carl > > > Here is the information for the call mentioned above. Please join if you > would like to discuss! > > *OpenHIE InterLinked Registry Community Call* > 9:00 – 10:00 am EST one Wednesday a month (see other time zones > http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/) > > *Agenda & Notes* > https://wiki.ohie.org/display/resources/InterLinked+ > Registries+Community+Call > > The numbers to call are: > US: 800-220-9875 > Norway: 800-142-85 > Ireland: 800-625-002 > Canada: 800-221-8656 > South Africa 0-800-982-555 > International (Not Toll-free) 1-302-709-8332 > For additional toll free country numbers *click here* > <https://openhie.atlassian.net/wiki/download/attachments/524314/Intl%20TF%20Numbers%20Oct%202012.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1354043516340&api=v2> > . > > *Passcode – 34048002#* > I can dial in any participants who are not able to connect through Skype > or one of the above numbers. Please email me in advance to be dialed in. > For any issues or concerns during the call, please find Emily on *Skype* at > enicholson_intrah > > On Oct 8, 2016, at 7:25 AM, Bob Jolliffe <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > Hi Kayode > > I think they can. > > It is just that usually they are not because hmis people generally > assemble the orgunit hierarchy to support reporting requirements for > hmis. Just as LMIS people assemble theirs with logistics logic in > mind. > > But absolutely nothing which can't be addressed through "local > arrangements and understandings" > > On 8 October 2016 at 13:16, Kayode Odusote <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > Dear Bob, > > Getting back to what you said, why can't offices in the Ministry be > included in the DHIS2 facility list? They are also service centres > though they are offering administrative services and should need > monitoring as well. > > Kayode > > > On 10/8/16, Bob Jolliffe <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > Hi Lungo > > Not quite what I said. It is early days for the SL shining case study > but well worth watching. > > Cheers > Bob > > On 8 October 2016 at 11:29, Juma Lungo <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > Dear Arthur, > > Bob has said it all. To integrate health systems, the culprit is the > facility list. As the list evolve, the integration die automatically. > > Facility registry is the way to go. Making both, the DHIS2 and iHRIS > referencing an external database of the facility makes the integration > permanent. Both, DHIS2 and iHRIS can easily be configured to learn > facility > attributes from external database easier. > > See Gerald's case study from Sierra Leone. It is our shining case study. > > One thing you need to take note is, even though right now you are looking > for a minimum functions for a HR system, the moment you implement demands > will increase. This is where iHRIS is the best option. > > Best regards, > > Lungo > > > ________________________________ > From: Bob Jolliffe <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > To: Arthur Heywood <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > Cc: Juma Lungo <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>; dhis2-users > <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>; " > [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>" > <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>; dhis2-devs < > [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2016 7:45 AM > Subject: Re: [Dhis2-users] [Dhis2-devs] Looking for Human Resource System > to > integrate with DHIS > > Hi Arthur > > Carl will probably be able to point you to various cases where this > has been done with dhis2 and ihris. I am familiar with examples from > Zanzibar, Kenya and Rwanda which sort of worked but none of which > could fairly be described as successful in the sense of sustained use > as far as I know. > > I think the main tricky bit to get right is the harmonization of > health facilities in the two systems not just as one off, but with > processes to keep them harmonized. You might only have 20 indicators > of interest but you have 1000s of facilities. As soon as the orgunits > start diverging the interoperability starts falling apart. I think > there was also some interesting work done in Bihar on this problem. > > One conventionasl "wisdom" that has done the rounds over the past few > years is that a separate facility registry is the solution to this. I > am less sure. In practice you now find that whereas before the > problem was harmonizing between 2 systems, now it becomes more complex > because you have 3 :-) Add more with LMIS etc .. > > So 2 alternative approaches emerge: > 1. retreat to dhis2 and try and do everything there - sometimes this > sort of works for many things (which is better than most), but it has > obvious limits and I don't believe can serve as the basis of long term > strategy to solve all problems > 2. insist that any system that sends data to dhis2 treats dhis2 as > the authoritative source of facility registry data. If only they > would :-) Unfortunately dhis2 view of the > physical/geographic/administrative world of the health system can > diverge sometimes significantly from that of an HRIS system - think of > MOH employees at offices not involved in health service delivery for > example. So there are local arrangements and understandings to be > made, but in general I think this path holds the most potential, > > In practice I think we have to concede the problems have been unsolved > for now. Unless someone can point me otherwise. The challenge seems > on the surface to be technically fairly trivial, But beneath lurk > demons. > > Cheers > Bob > > On 8 October 2016 at 07:13, Arthur Heywood <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > wrote: > > Lungo > Good to hear from you ... long time no see > Thanks for this .... can you tell me where we have a SUCCESSFUL > implementation where one can actually get IHRIS data through DHIS and > make > integrated indicators, use IHRIS indicators for Bottleneck analysis etc > > Regards > Arthur > > **Without deviation from the norm, there can be no progress* *(Frank > Zappa) > *Skype* arthur_heywood_za > Tanzania* +255-773669393 OR +255 673150252 > > > > > > > > > > On 5 October 2016 at 06:54, Juma Lungo <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > > Hi Arthur, > > I would recommend iHRIS. > > It has many features, integrates nicely with DHIS2, implemented in many > countries and it is being supported by an active community working > closely > with DHIS2 developers. > > Lungo > > > ________________________________ > From: Calle Hedberg <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > To: Arthur Heywood <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > Cc: dhis2-users <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>; > dhis2-devs > <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>; gerald > thomas > <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>; > Seleman Ally <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 10:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Dhis2-devs] [Dhis2-users] Looking for Human Resource > System > to integrate with DHIS > > Arthur, > > I'm not directly involved with the HRIS work using DHIS, my current > focus > is on a fully integrated disease surveillance system. Will find out and > get > back to you. > > Regards > Calle > > On 4 October 2016 at 15:15, Arthur Heywood <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > wrote: > > Calle > In Zambia we are also looking to set up what you call a "core" Human > Resource HMIS ... mainly to do some "Bottleneck analysis" for our MDGi > districts ... > > Are we able to use a beta version and see what we are able to adapt it > to > our needs (same people being called different professional jobs etc) > and > then feed back into the development process ....interesting to know how > far > you have progressed? > > Cheers > a > > **Without deviation from the norm, there can be no progress* *(Frank > Zappa) > *Skype* arthur_heywood_za > Tanzania* +255-773669393 OR +255 673150252 > > > > > > > > > > On 26 August 2016 at 23:08, Calle Hedberg <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > wrote: > > Laura, > > The two main HRIS component designs "within" DHIS2 are the HRHIS in > Tanzania and another in Vietnam (John Lewis or Morten will be able to > tell > you more about that one). > > South Africa is currently using a customised Tracker app for managing > Community Service and Internships (around 10,000 graduates are applying > for > internship or Community Service posts per annum). > > We are also working on a "core" workforce registry tightly integrated > with > DHIS2. By "core" I mean it will only deal with actual HR resources > including > position, what they are licensed/authorised to do, and contact details. > Things like continuous education, bursaries, payroll, etc are > processed/managed by other systems. A major advantage of tight > integration > will be the ability to use DHIS2 communication and messages + user > registration to communicate directly with health workers - in > particular > since health workers increasingly will be interacting directly with > DHIS2 > on > a daily basis through (daily) capturing of routine data, disease > notifications, various Tracker apps (browser or Android), etc. > > Your basic requirements seem very similar: your primary need is to > track > the workforce as an INPUT RESOURCE to health service delivery, and not > to > track salaries and CVs and health insurance and employment history and > a > bunch of other "personal" things. So you need to know WHO they are, > where > they actually work and with what (in what position), what they are able > to > do (mostly this relates to formal/legal practice licensing etc, but it > could > be expanded to include specialist knowledge about certain diseases > etc), > and > how to contact them. > > Regards > Calle > > On 26 August 2016 at 21:56, gerald thomas <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> > wrote: > > I had use ihris and it is good. If you want help with it I am willing > to > help. > > On Aug 26, 2016 6:46 PM, "Laura E. Lincks" > <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > u> wrote: > > We are looking for a simple Human Resources tool to integrate with a > DHIS > aggregate database. Little is known of the needs of the HRIS, but for > now > it > needs to track personnel details and groups of personnel will need to > be > associated with various programs in a separate DHIS aggregate database. > An > Open Source HRIS is preferable. > > In searching for tools I have come across the following: > HRHIS in Tanzania developed by the HISP-TZ/University of Dar es Salaam > iHRIS developed by global Capacity Project. > > I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of or experience with these > packages or if there were other applications that could be of use to > us? > > Thanks in advance to anyone with leads or information. > > Laura E. Lincks > Database Manager/Developer > ICAP - Columbia University > Mailman School of Public Health > 60 Haven Ave, Floor B1 > New York, NY 10032 > Tel: 212 304 7132 > > ______________________________ _________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-u sers > Post to : [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> t > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-u sers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/Lis tHelp > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-d evs > Post to : [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-d evs > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/Lis tHelp > > > > > -- > ****************************** ************* > Calle Hedberg > 46D Alma Road, 7700 Rosebank, SOUTH AFRICA > Tel/fax (home): +27-21-685-6472 > Cell: +27-82-853-5352 > Iridium SatPhone: +8816-315-19119 > Email: [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > Skype: calle_hedberg > ****************************** ************* > > > ______________________________ _________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-u sers > Post to : [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> t > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-u sers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/Lis tHelp > > > > > > -- > ******************************************* > Calle Hedberg > 46D Alma Road, 7700 Rosebank, SOUTH AFRICA > Tel/fax (home): +27-21-685-6472 > Cell: +27-82-853-5352 > Iridium SatPhone: +8816-315-19119 > Email: [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > Skype: calle_hedberg > > > ******************************************* > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs > Post to : [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-devs > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-users > Post to : [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-users > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-users > Post to : [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-users > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-users > Post to : [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~dhis2-users > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > -- *****Without deviation from the norm, there can be no progress*** *(Frank Zappa)* *Skype* arthur_heywood_za Tanzania* +255-773669393 OR +255 673150252
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