Does anyone else think that 'better' visualisation of releases and dates would help with keeping to schedules (testing, development, documentation)? Asking for tester commitment as part of submitting proposals or developing features may assist with this also.
I'm thinking something like a 1 year roadmap/overview in a simple Gantt or even list form, might help highlight development windows and ensure the community can easily see what's coming up where. Just a thought. Regards Alex Hitchins D: +44 1892 523 587 | S: +44 2036 030 540 | M: +44 7788 423 969 alex.hitch...@shapeblue.com -----Original Message----- From: Mike Tutkowski [mailto:mike.tutkow...@solidfire.com] Sent: 28 February 2014 20:13 To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org Subject: Re: 4.4 Feature Freeze I agree that postponing should not be the norm. I think we need to figure out from a process standpoint what we might do to limit pushing dates back. One thing that I've had experience with in the storage industry (at HP and now SolidFire) is the idea of a risk-adjusted release window. In the "best" of cases, you should expect the software to be released on X. In the "worst" of cases, you should expect the software to be released on Y. One issue with adapting that idea for CloudStack is that CloudStack releases are quite a bit more frequent than what we had at HP and SolidFire. Another issue I see is with defining what a release candidate really means. At HP and SolidFire, when we built a release candidate, that RC had a much higher probability of not being re-spun. I think this had to do with the amount of formal testing that went into each release. By the time we were ready to build a release candidate, it had been weeks before the last code change went in and there had been tons of testing performed (a lot of it automated) during that interval. I'm not sure, though, with four-month release cycles if that's doable for CloudStack. On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Erik Weber <terbol...@gmail.com> wrote: > Of course, as a customer there might be specific feature that I'd > really want to get released as planned. > And well, I'm not saying it's not possible to be flexible with a date > or two in specific cases. > I'm a bit more worried that postponing becomes the norm, e.g. that all > future versions always get delayed, which in turn delays the next > version. Before you know it you're down to three releases per year. > > As a customer, and service provider, having a bug free and stable > environment is more important than having the hottest new features out > there. Of course they're always welcome, but if I have to choose > between 'über feature X but 2 months delayed' and 'fixes that critical > bug you have on time' I'll take the latter one any day. > > And before anyway says it, we could of course roll our own versions, > and just use the latest RC, but that'd be problematic for support > contracts. > > Erik > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Mike Tutkowski < > mike.tutkow...@solidfire.com> wrote: > > > Personally I'm not at much risk of missing a deadline if it's still > > two weeks out. I was thinking more along the lines that others - who > > have > been > > hard at work on 4.3 RC testing, as well - might miss their deadlines. > > > > I can see your point of view, Erik. In my case, it's the opposite: > > customers would rather have feature X from SolidFire sooner rather > > than wait another 1/3 of a year. > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 7:40 AM, Erik Weber <terbol...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > As a customer of several companies involved with cloudstack i must > > > say > > that > > > having a reliable time schedule is more important than having > > > feature > X. > > > We've been waiting for 4.3 since we discovered a bug that got > > > fixed in > > 4.3 > > > but not in 4.2 branch and rendered us unable to use that version. > > > > > > If 4.3 had held it's schedule we would've been rolling almost one > > > month ago, instead we are still wasting time waiting for a supported > > > version. > > > > > > If 4.4 now were to be postponed and an important bug appears in > > > 4.3 > with > > a > > > fix in 4.4 it would have me thinking about moving to other > > > solutions > if i > > > know that it'll be 5-6 months before release. > > > > > > Erik > > > 27. feb. 2014 20:57 skrev "Mike Tutkowski" < > > mike.tutkow...@solidfire.com> > > > følgende: > > > > > > > I'm not sure I would say that not moving the feature-freeze date > > > > is a penalty, but it does have consequences for customers...as > > > > does the > fact > > > > that we miss our release deadlines consistently. > > > > > > > > If you are working on a feature that hasn't been advertised to > > > > your customers via a roadmap or some other mechanism, then it > > > > doesn't > really > > > > matter, I suppose, if you release that feature today or, say, > > > > four > > months > > > > from now when the next release comes out. > > > > > > > > However, many of us work under the direction of a roadmap that > > > > has > been > > > > made visible to our customers. In such an environment, these > customers > > do > > > > expect when you tell them feature X will be out in, say, 4.3 > > > > that it > > > does, > > > > in fact, come out in 4.3 and not four months later in 4.4. > > > > > > > > I just wanted to point this out because I've seen in several > > > > e-mails > > over > > > > the past year the following idea: If a feature doesn't make it > > > > into > > this > > > > release, no big deal - it can be put in the next release. > > > > > > > > While technically true, this does not take into consideration > customer > > > > expectations around feature-release dates. > > > > > > > > Personally, I'd rather push a feature-freeze date back by a > > > > couple > > weeks > > > > than make customers (of mine or anyone else's) wait another 1/3 > > > > of a > > year > > > > or more for the feature(s) in question. > > > > > > > > At some point, however, we need to conduct a retrospective to > > > > uncover > > why > > > > we are not hitting our deadlines. Perhaps the deadlines are too > tight? > > > > Perhaps there is a process issue missing (or in place) that > > > > prevents > us > > > > from doing so? etc. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:21 PM, John Kinsella > > > > <j...@stratosec.co> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't see not moving the freeze date as a penalty. If a > > > > > feature > > > > doesn't > > > > > make the current deadline, it moves to the next release, which > > > > > is > > > still a > > > > > few months away. For significant issues, it's not uncommon for > > > > > us > to > > > > allow > > > > > them in late. > > > > > > > > > > What we have a stronger need for than shifting a date, by > > > > > several > > > orders > > > > > of magnitude, is understanding why the RC process took so long > > > > > and > > what > > > > we > > > > > can do in the future to make that not so painful. > > > > > > > > > > For the record I'm +0 on moving the feature freeze date. > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 26, 2014, at 7:10 PM, Ram Ganesh > > > > > <ram.gan...@citrix.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I share it too. Many developers in the community went out of > their > > > way > > > > > to get a cleaner RC and thereby impacting their feature > > > > > development efforts. We shouldn't be penalizing them with this > > > > > 2 week's feature > > > > freeze > > > > > schedule > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > RamG > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> From: Animesh Chaturvedi > > > > > >> [mailto:animesh.chaturv...@citrix.com] > > > > > >> Sent: 27 February 2014 03:00 > > > > > >> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > >> Subject: RE: 4.4 Feature Freeze > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Mike I share your opinion most of us have been pretty much > > > > > >> on > 4.3 > > > > until > > > > > >> now, and pushing out the release seems reasonable. As I > > > > > >> called > out > > > in > > > > > earlier > > > > > >> mail the feature proposal date was not called out for 4.4 > > > > > >> and as > > > such > > > > > giving > > > > > >> little extra room seems reasonable. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Animesh > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >>> From: Mike Tutkowski [mailto:mike.tutkow...@solidfire.com] > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:29 AM > > > > > >>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: 4.4 Feature Freeze > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> I think we're having this discussion after every release > because > > > > we're > > > > > >>> beginning to realize that a four-month release cycle has > > > > > >>> not > been > > > > very > > > > > >>> realistic for us yet. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> The main issue I encounter is our month-long RC cycle > > > > > >>> where I > > > spend a > > > > > >>> bunch of time validating the RC and (during that > > > > > >>> timeframe) > less > > > time > > > > > >>> developing for the next release as I had initially planned. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Perhaps instead of extending the cycle we could consider > > > > > >>> ways > to > > > > > >>> actually meet the schedule on a consistent basis. That > > > > > >>> would be > > > fine, > > > > > as > > > > > >> well. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:04 AM, Hugo Trippaers < > > h...@trippaers.nl > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> -1 on postponing the feature freeze. We are having this > > discussion > > > > > >>>> after every release, however we agreed to do a 4 month > > > > > >>>> cycle > so > > > > > >>>> let's stick > > > > > >>> to it. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> If there are important features that are currently being > > developed > > > > > >>>> but might not make this cut-off date we should discuss > > > > > >>>> that separately, but as a point of principle lets stick > > > > > >>>> to the > > release > > > > > schedule as > > > > > >> proposed. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Cheers, > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Hugo > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> On 26 feb. 2014, at 15:23, Tracy Phillips > > > > > >>>> <tracy.phill...@weberize.com> > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>>> +1 to Daan. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Tracy Phillips > > > > > >>>>> Weberize, Inc. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 7:48 AM, Daan Hoogland > > > > > >>>>> <daan.hoogl...@gmail.com > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> -1 for postponing the feature freeze. It will amount to > > > > > >>>>>> more features in the release. I'd rather shorten the > > > > > >>>>>> cycle and do > > > more > > > > > >>>>>> releases then to pack more bugs in a single go. > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:13 PM, Guo Star < > > ghxand...@gmail.com> > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>> +1 > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> 2014-02-26 20:01 GMT+08:00 Abhinandan Prateek < > > > > > >>>>>> abhinandan.prat...@citrix.com > > > > > >>>>>>>> : > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> +1 for 4.4 feature freeze on 3/28. > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> On 26/02/14 10:01 am, "Sateesh Chodapuneedi" > > > > > >>>>>>>> <sateesh.chodapune...@citrix.com> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> From: Mike Tutkowski [mailto: > mike.tutkow...@solidfire.com > > ] > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: 26 February 2014 04:46 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: 4.4 Feature Freeze > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I think this is a good idea, Animesh (to push out > feature > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> freeze to 3/28). > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> +1 to move 4.4 feature freeze date to 3/28. > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Regards, > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Sateesh > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I also agree we should discuss 4+ month development > cycles > > > > > >> again. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> < animesh.chaturv...@citrix.com> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I will start a separate discussion on 4 month > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> cycle or longer, but wanted to call out one more > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> important date. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> We have a last day for feature proposal date which > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> is typically a month before feature freeze date. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> If > > following > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 4.3 schedule + 4 > > > > > >>>>>> month > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> it would have been 2/14 and we are already past that. > > Since > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> it was > > > > > >>>>>> not > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> announced for > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 4.4 release yet my suggestion would be to keep > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> feature proposal > > > > > >>>>>> open > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> for another week and push all the dates out by 2 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> weeks > > to > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> give > > > > > >>>>>> folks > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to finish up their features for new > proposals > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> that are > > > > > >>>>>> yet > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> to come out. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> To be clear that would mean pushing out feature > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> freeze > to > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 3/28 from > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 3/14 and all the other dates likewise. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Animesh > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Animesh Chaturvedi > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:animesh.chaturv...@citrix.com] > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 1:05 PM > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: 4.4 Feature Freeze > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> With the experience of 4.2 and 4.3 I think we > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> should discuss if > > > > > >>>>>> we > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> can realistically achieve 4 month cycle our RCs > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> take 2 months. I > > > > > >>>>>> was > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> going to open up the discussion after 4.3 is > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> shipped > > > though. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Trippie [mailto:trip...@gmail.com] On > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf > Of > > > Hugo > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Trippaers > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:50 AM > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <dev@cloudstack.apache.org> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: 4.4 Feature Freeze > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If we stick to our 4 month release schedule the > feature > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> freeze > > > > > >>>>>> is > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> four months after the feature freeze of 4.3. The > > feature > > > > > >>>>>> freeze of > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.3 was > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 8 Nov > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> So the proposed release schedule for 4.4 would > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> look > > like > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this (dates slightly modified to take efficiency > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and > > RM's > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> personal > > > > > >>>>>> life > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> into > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> account ;-) ): > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Feature Freeze: March 14, 2014 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Testing/Bug Fixes: March 15, 2014 > till > > > > April > > > > > >>>>>> 18, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> 2014 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (direct access for committers) > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stability Fixes only: April 19, > > > 2014 > > > > > till > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> release (cherry picks > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> by RM only) > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> First RC: May 9, > 2014 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Optimistic Release Date: May 19, 2014 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hugo > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25 feb. 2014, at 16:35, Sudha Ponnaganti > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <sudha.ponnaga...@citrix.com> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am also looking for feature freeze dates for 4.4. > > Can > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> RM > > > > > >>>>>> post > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> those? > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Sudha > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Alex Hitchins [mailto: > > alex.hitch...@shapeblue.com > > > ] > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:00 AM > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: 4.4 Feature Freeze > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know the 4.3 isn't quite out the door yet, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but is > > > there > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a timetable > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere stating when the feature freeze for > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.4 > will > > > be? > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to submit a feature and want to > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ensure > > that > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's prepared in > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> time. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many thanks, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Hitchins > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> VP Software Engineering > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> D: +44 1892 523 587 | S: +44 20 3603 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0540<tel:+442036030540> > > > > > >>>>>> | > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> M: > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> +44<tel:+447968161581> 7788 423 969 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ShapeBlue Ltd, 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, > > London, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WC2N > > > > > >>>>>> 4HS > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need Enterprise Grade Support for Apache CloudStack? > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our CloudStack Infrastructure > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Support<http://shapeblue.com/cloudstack- > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure-support/> offers the best 24/7 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> SLA for > > > > > >>>>>> CloudStack > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Environments. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apache CloudStack Bootcamp training courses > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> **NEW!** CloudStack 4.2.1 > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training<http://shapeblue.com/cloudstack- > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> training/> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 18th-19th February 2014, Brazil. > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Classroom<http://shapeblue.com/cloudstack-traini > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ng/> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 17th-23rd March 2014, Region A. 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