I did look into the naming and I thought that it would need to be discussed at some point before the lazy consensus stage after the dev work is done but I guess I was wrong :)
I read through some docs regarding the naming and I kept thinking that Apache Gremlin might not be right, so I decided to remove 'Apache' from all doc strings. One thing that popped in one of the documentations from Microsoft that says Apache Gremlin (here https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/cosmos-db/gremlin/introduction) which confused me. I will change the folder to apache/tinkerpop. Thanks Stephen for the in-depth explanation. On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 6:56 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > Cool. I will let Ahmad comment, but I think we found the **someone** who > will help in case there are some future issues with the Tinkerpop/Gremlin > provider. > While I like Gremlin better (it's just a cool name and I like the logo, > tinkerpop has a cool logo as well https://tinkerpop.apache.org/index.html > ). > > So as long as we decide not to use common.graph -> I am fine with both :) > > j. > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 7:42 PM Stephen Mallette <spmalle...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 12:57 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > > > > > > In the interest of ASF trademarks, I would suggest it be called > > > "apache/tinkerpop" with "Gremlin" naming reserved for operators and the > > > like, as it is now with GremlinOperator. I think this makes sense > because > > > it is connecting to TinkerPop-enabled systems via Gremlin. I would > > > similarly suggest that references to "Apache Gremlin" and the like > become > > > "Apache TinkerPop". > > > > > > That's an interesting one - indeed TinkerPop is the PMC/ Framework - > > > Gremlin is the language. > > > > > > I am not sure we are actually using TinkerPop here - because TinkerPop > is > > > the whole framework - Ahmad, can you explain the relation there - are > > those > > > other systems simply implement Gremlin as language or do they use > > TinkerPop > > > for something / as a backend? > > > > > > > I'm sure Ahmad could answer but I'll quickly offer my take. I think that > in > > this case we should prefer "TinkerPop" over Gremlin as a top-level name > > particularly because it's prefixed with "Apache" and there is no "Apache > > Gremlin" which I tend to think is confusing when the words are that close > > together. I can't recall over the years just how many times I've asked > for > > corrections in blog posts. :) > > > > Because that's a bit of a conceptual difference here. For example in the > > > provider we are importing https://pypi.org/project/gremlinpython not > > > "tinkerpop" - and it also does not have tinkerpop as dependency. > > > > > > > A bit of history goes along with a lot of our naming for what we term > > Gremlin Language Variants (GLVs), like gremlinpython, which are variants > of > > Gremlin natively implemented to allow users to express Gremlin in the > > idioms of their own language. They also provide driver connectivity to > > compatible servers. TinkerPop has mostly inherited all of its language > > variants, including gremlinpython which was the first, from third-party > > community developers. As a project, we didn't really get a hand in the > > naming so with those projects already in heavy use we just kinda of stuck > > to it and even doubled-down (like when we built gremlin-go within the > ASF). > > > > I think in this case, your project organization under "apache" seems to > > almost lend itself nicely to apache/tinkerpop. i think users will > recognize > > it as equally as they recognize Gremlin. > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if Gremlin is also a Trademark by Apache ? Maybe we should ask > > > tinkerpop PMC what they think about it? > > > > > > > Gremlin is not an ASF trademark. That was debated for quite a long time > > with trademarks@ along with deciding if Gremlin, the character and his > > friends[1], were to be protected. In the end, for reasons I'm not sure I > > quite remember, the ASF didn't think it was necessary. > > > > Anyway, I'm not sure if you noted my earlier post[2] but I'm one of the > > original contributors to Apache TinkerPop, even before we brought it to > the > > ASF so I'm pretty familiar with our project. :) > > > > [1] > > > > > https://github.com/apache/tinkerpop/blob/master/docs/static/images/tinkerpop3-splash.png > > [2] https://lists.apache.org/thread/9hf4t8hyk944fyo4q3nygczyo5xhk18y > > > > > > > > > > > > > J. > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 4:55 PM Stephen Mallette < > spmalle...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025/02/26 12:38:02 Jarek Potiuk wrote: > > > > > Yeah . `apache/gremlin" seems like a better option then. Does > anyone > > > have > > > > > anything against it? > > > > > > > > In the interest of ASF trademarks, I would suggest it be called > > > > "apache/tinkerpop" with "Gremlin" naming reserved for operators and > the > > > > like, as it is now with GremlinOperator. I think this makes sense > > because > > > > it is connecting to TinkerPop-enabled systems via Gremlin. I would > > > > similarly suggest that references to "Apache Gremlin" and the like > > become > > > > "Apache TinkerPop". > > > > > > > > > I think we are pretty happy with accepting "other > > > > > apache" projects as providers, so I see no issue with Gremlin - > > knowing > > > > > that we can always reach out to our friendly Apache Community in > case > > > of > > > > > any issues. So - unless we do not hear any "opposition" in a few > > days, > > > I > > > > > think it would make sense if you start `[LAZY CONSENSUS]` thread - > > > > > without a need for `[VOTE]` thread. > > > > > > > > > > One thing though that I would love to have - is to also have an > > > > integration > > > > > test if possible (we had it with apache.kafka for example) - those > > are > > > > > tests that could run **some** graphdb database locally (via > > > > docker-compose) > > > > > and run a very rudimentary checks against a "real" database, not a > > > mocked > > > > > call. That would make it more robust. > > > > > > > > > > More about integration tests, how to build, run, test them and > > > integrate > > > > > them in our CI can be found here: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/airflow/blob/main/contributing-docs/testing/integration_tests.rst > > > > > - happy to help if you are stuck with it. > > > > > > > > > > J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:25 PM Ahmad Farhan < > > > ahmad.farhan9...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I pushed changes to move the provider into the “apache” > directory. > > > > After > > > > > > updating the class references across the project, I re-tested and > > all > > > > tests > > > > > > passed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding the use of Gremlin (or another graph query language > like > > > > Cypher > > > > > > and SPARQL) for a common package approach, here are my thoughts > on > > > the > > > > pros > > > > > > and cons: > > > > > > > > > > > > pros (I can see only one): > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gremlin has been widely adopted by different cloud vendors > > (e.g. > > > > Azure > > > > > > Cosmos DB with Apache Gremlin and AWS Neptune) as well as in > > > > self-hosted > > > > > > environments. > > > > > > > > > > > > cons: > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gremlin, Cypher (native for Neo4j) and SPARQL each have > their > > > own > > > > > > drivers for executing queries. > > > > > > - To achieve a common abstraction, a wrapper around each > driver > > > > would be > > > > > > required. Each driver has its own connection parameters, > > > underlying > > > > > > protocols, and may need method overrides for compatibility > with > > > > > > different > > > > > > Python versions. > > > > > > - Not all vendors support every query language; for instance, > > > > Gremlin > > > > > > for Neo4j has been deprecated in recent releases, while Cosmos > > DB > > > > does > > > > > > not > > > > > > support Cypher or SPARQL. > > > > > > > > > > > > While it would be ideal to have a unified graph query language > and > > > > driver > > > > > > that works seamlessly across different vendors, such a solution > > does > > > > not > > > > > > exist at the moment. In my opinion, implementing > provider-specific > > > > > > solutions for each query language (Gremlin, Cypher, SPARQL) is > more > > > > > > realistic and practical given the current landscape. > > > > > > > > > > > > Happy to discuss further or answer any questions! > > > > > > > > > > > > Farhan > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2025 at 11:33 AM Ahmad Farhan < > > > > ahmad.farhan9...@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have worked with two different graph database vendors—Azure > > > Cosmos > > > > DB > > > > > > > and Neo4j. During our migration to Neo4j, we discovered that > > using > > > > the > > > > > > > Gremlin language wasn’t possible; we were forced to rewrite all > > our > > > > > > queries > > > > > > > into Cypher, which is the native language for Neo4j and, in my > > > > > > experience, > > > > > > > much simpler for querying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This situation highlights a key challenge for a common > > abstraction: > > > > the > > > > > > > underlying query languages and connection/authentication > > mechanisms > > > > vary > > > > > > > significantly. Gremlin is not only different from Cypher in > > syntax > > > > but is > > > > > > > also deprecated for Neo4j (see > > > > > > > > https://tinkerpop.apache.org/docs/3.7.3/reference/#neo4j-gremlin > > ). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question would be how can the common approach accommodate > > these > > > > > > > different query languages? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 7:36 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Without deep looking at the code I love the idea - it's very > > > > similar to > > > > > > >> what we have for common.sql and common.io - and soon > > > > common.messaging > > > > > > - I > > > > > > >> also - long time ago - suggested common.dataframe that someone > > > could > > > > > > >> submit > > > > > > >> using Apache Ibis: > > > > > > >> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/qx3yh6h0l6jb0kh3fz9q95b3x5b4001l > > > - > > > > > > >> similarly I believe there was an idea about common.llm ... > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I think the "common" pattern is a great one for Airflow, to > > build > > > > on top > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >> "other giants" who build those common abstractions that you > can > > > > easily > > > > > > >> switch between different implementations of various data > access > > > > layers. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> My suggestion and question - would be however (not very strong > > on > > > > it, I > > > > > > >> would love to hear what others think, I know it's been > somewhat > > > > > > >> contentious > > > > > > >> when I started the ibis discussion) - would be to make it > > > > > > "common.graph", > > > > > > >> "common.dataframe" - instead of "apache.gremlin" or > > "apache.ibis" > > > - > > > > just > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > >> stress that those are not implementations of particular > service > > > but > > > > > > >> opinionated choice of particular technology to do "common" > > > > operations. > > > > > > >> This > > > > > > >> is what essentially "common.io" is . - it should be named > > > "fsspec" > > > > > > >> provider > > > > > > >> if we were to name it by the "library" that implemented it. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> J. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 8:22 PM Ahmad Farhan < > > > > > > ahmad.farhan9...@gmail.com> > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I’ve created a draft PR ( > > > > https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/46977 > > > > > > ) > > > > > > >> to > > > > > > >> > introduce and discuss a new provider for using Gremlin—the > > graph > > > > > > >> traversal > > > > > > >> > language of Apache TinkerPop (more details here: > > > > > > >> > https://tinkerpop.apache.org/gremlin.html). Gremlin is > > > supported > > > > by > > > > > > >> > various > > > > > > >> > graph database vendors such as Azure Cosmos DB and Amazon > > > Neptune. > > > > > > >> > Previously, I had to develop a custom hook to query data > from > > > > Azure > > > > > > >> Cosmos > > > > > > >> > DB using Apache Gremlin. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I managed to create a provider and run it locally on the > main > > > > branch. > > > > > > >> > However, I ran into the BaseHook issue ( > > > > > > >> > https://github.com/apache/airflow/issues/45233) on that > > branch, > > > > so I > > > > > > >> ended > > > > > > >> > up testing it fully on the v2-10-test branch. The PR should > be > > > > > > complete, > > > > > > >> > but I’ve kept it as a draft for now while we discuss the > > > provider. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I’m a new contributor, so I’m especially eager to hear your > > > > feedback. > > > > > > >> > Comments on the PR is very welcome, and please feel free to > > > reach > > > > out > > > > > > >> with > > > > > > >> > any questions via email or Slack. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Thanks, > > > > > > >> > Ahmad Farhan > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@airflow.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@airflow.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
