Peter,
Sorry if you feel I misinterpreted your words. (You said: “may be to avoid having to draw up a new lease until it was necessary.”) Dodge wasn’t intended in any pejorative way, simply as being expedient. Elwyn On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 11:47, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList < [email protected]> wrote: > Just in case my email didn’t go to the mailing list, I’ll repeat my > response to Elwyn Souter: Elwyn, at no stage did I suggest it was a “dodge” > thank you. > > Peter > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On 29 Jun 2020, at 8:16 pm, Peter McKittrick <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Elwyn, at no time did I suggest it was a “dodge” thank you. > > > > Peter > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >>> On 29 Jun 2020, at 7:24 pm, elwyn soutter <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >> > >> Regarding “reps of” cases, it was common for there to be significant > delays in winding up of some estates. That could be a combination of slow > or ineffective executors or it could be because there were disputes or > other legal matters which delayed things. > >> > >> As a random search, I went to the PRONI wills website and looked for > people who died between 1858 and 1862 but whose estates were not granted > probate until between 1890 and 1900. There are 36 such cases. So it took > up to 32 years for probate to be granted in a fairly significant number of > cases. And until that was done the executors had control over lease renewal > etc. So any property transactions relating to those estates would have > “reps of” for many many years. (It wasn’t a dodge to avoid a new lease, as > Peter suggests. It was just that the owner was dead but the property had > not yet been passed on formally to the person who had inherited it. So the > person with temporary jurisdiction, and landlord, was the executor(s). > >> > >> Here’s a William Bradley who died in 1877. Probate was finally granted > in 1940. Just a slight delay of 63 years. (The estate was valued at a > whopping £25). > >> > >> Bradley William of Drumard county Tyrone farmer died 26 January 1877 > Administration W/A Londonderry 13 September to Enoch Bradley farmer. > Effects £25. Probate: 13 September 1940. > >> > >> On many of the lengthy delay cases you will find the letters “d.b.n” in > the probate abstract. DBN is short for “De bonis non” a term used by the > Probate Court when dealing with estates where the original executor(s) did > not fulfil their obligations to the deceased, perhaps because they were > overseas or even dead themselves, and no-one else took any action to > resolve things. > >> > >> > >> > >> Elwyn > >> > >>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:25, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>> Hi Rick, you asked for an example of "Representatives of [Name] being > listed in relation to tenancies. The example I’ve seen is when the Altmore > Estate was auctioned in 1872 and the sale prospectus listed all the > existing lease agreements including one over an Altmore property i.n.o. > Robert McKittrick where the Tenants Names are recorded as "Representatives > of Robert McKittrick". This document is available on subscription through > Find My Past Landed Estates Court Rentals1850-1885. By 1860 and Griffith, > Robert’s son John (don’t think he was the eldest) is in Occupation of the > property and by 1869 Robert had died, but in 1872 the lease agreement with > Reps of Robert McKittrick was still being relied upon. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Peter McKittrick > >>> > >>> > On 28 Jun 2020, at 8:33 am, Peter McKittrick <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > > >>> > Rick, good topic. The only thing I’ve noticed is that the lessee is > sometimes described as “Representatives of.....“ May be to avoid having to > draw up a new lease until it was absolutely necessary say when the lessor > changed. > >>> > > >>> > Peter > >>> > > >>> > Sent from my iPhone > >>> > > >>> >> On 28 Jun 2020, at 6:20 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Hello all …I've been having difficulty finding information > concerning how tenancy was passed along from generation to generation on > the plantation farms. What was the legal framework for inheriting the lease > on the farm that the family had been occupying … in our case for at least > 150 years prior to the land acts at the end of the 19th century? Hoping > somebody might be able to steer me somewhere on this issue. > >>> >> Also, any insight on how a decision was made within a family > regarding which son (or daughter) would assume responsibility for the lease? > >>> >> Thanks, as always … > >>> >> Rick Smoll > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >>> >> From: elwyn soutter <[email protected]> > >>> >> To: James McKane <[email protected]> > >>> >> Cc: Rick Smoll <[email protected]>; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing > List <[email protected]> > >>> >> Sent: Thu, Jun 11, 2020 8:21 pm > >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster > 1610 - 1633 > >>> >> > >>> >> Rick, Ballyboe is from the Irish words “Baile bo”meaning “cow > land.” According to Philip Robinson - “The Plantation of Ulster”,a ballyboe > was “A small Irish land division which, before the plantation,represented > the territory within which several families worked the land.Although the > real area of the ballyboe varied greatly with the quality of theland, it > was assumed by the plantation surveyors to contain 60 acres ofprofitable > land in most areas of north-west Ulster. Many modern townlands haveevolved > from these ballyboes.” Not all land in Ireland was requisitionedby the > Crown at the time of the Plantation. At least a third remained in thehands > of local Irish landlords, normally provided they agreed to be loyal tothe > Crown. An obvious example would bethe Maguires who had lands in Fermanagh. > Chunks of land were declared forfeitfollowing the 1641 uprising and > reallocated. Details in the Down survey: > http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php Robinson spends some time > discussing theorigins of settler names in Tyrone, and to what extent > Scottish undertakers hadScots tenants, and English undertakers had English > tenants. The implicationbeing that they originated in their landlords > respective estates. However therewas evidently a lot of mixing. For example > on p122 he says: The evidence of Scots settling outsidetheir allocated > baronies of Strabane and Mountjoy is supplemented by a statementof Lord > Audley’s in 1614 when he claimed that his estate of Finagh and Rarone > inOmagh barony had as many Scots as English in it. Although there is > considerable degree ofcontinuity between 1630 and 1666 in the > distributional pattern of Britishsettlement, and indeed in the persistence > of English and Scottish localities,the actual surnames on most estates did > change dramatically. This turnover ofpersonnel cannot be attributed simply > to the ravages of the 1641 rebellion, forcomparable changes can be observed > between 1622 and 1630. A high degree oftenant mobility is a striking > characteristic of plantation settlement, despitethe continuity of > settlement patterns.” He goes on to discuss colonial spread. “In1622 the > percentage of Scots on any Tyrone estate was closely related towhether or > not the estate was Scottish owned, and only marginally related tothe > physical distance from Londonderry as the natural entry point for > Scottishsettlers. However by 1630 the gap between the statistical > significance of thesetwo factors had narrowed, and by 1666 it was the > distance from Londonderrywhich was most significant. This supports the > model of colonization outlinedabove, whereby the process of direct > plantation, with subsequent internalmigration operated simultaneously with > that of colonial spread. Furthermore thecontention that colonial spread > became relatively more important than directplantation with time is also > supported.” (This continues for pages but you willhopefully get the general > drift. Manysettlers in Tyrone and particularly the Scots arrived via > Londonderry and movedacross Tyrone. Some stayed put and some moved about. > After 40 years colonialspread meant that a significant percentage were no > longer in the place wherethey first settled). Loughterush is in the barony > of Omagh East.For me, the absence of Morrisons in that part of Tyrone in > the Muster Rolls (iec 1630) strongly suggests your ancestors must have > there arrived afterthat. There’s only 1 Morison in Tyronein the Muster > Rolls, a Robert Morsion in Strabane barony. Perhaps your familywere > connected to him and moved south to Loughterush. So colonial spread? Your > question is whether Audley brought theMorisons over? I doubt he brought > them over himself because he appears to haveacquired those lands from his > uncle, Lord Castlehaven who was the originalUndertaker. The family were > from Petersfield in Hampshire. Morison is not a name particularly common > inthat part of England so that would make me doubt they were Castlehaven > tenantsin England. But I might be wrong. Elwyn > >>> >> On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 01:21, James McKane <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> A search of the CoTyroneIreland.com Tithe Applotment Index shows > this entry > >>> >> > >>> >> | MORRISON | Edward | Loughterush | Sloy Manor, Kilskerry 1826 > >>> >> | > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Jim McKane > >>> >> Kitchener, Ontario > >>> >> > >>> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:02 PM Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> I located a copy of the 1654-1656 Civil Survey that covers the > townland of Loughterush in Kilskeery Parish … this obviously does not list > the tenants names, only the owner … but there is interesting information > there that for me begs some questions that perhaps some of you could help > me with. I have attached the top page with the header that describes the > area and names the owner, and then the page that lists Laghterish (older > spelling or misspelling of Loughterush) among the townlands in his > possession. > >>> >> Questions:1. Is there any reason to have confidence that Col. > Audley Mervin would have been the one to have brought the Morrisons over > to Loughterush? 2. Were all of the lands of Ulster apportioned out in the > time frame around 1610, or did it take a longer period of time (ie, could > Mervin have been granted his land after 1630?) He was also listed among > those who came to the aid of Londonderry during the siege by James II in > 1690, so he was not likely an original grantee in 1610.3.The total acreage > for the townlands of Lisnahanna, Loughterush, and Derryvokenan (?) is > listed as 65 acres … there is obviously a lot more than 65 acres there > (even Irish acres) ; the Morrison farm alone was about 40-50 acres … could > that be referring to only the amount of acreage under cultivation? > >>> >> Other items of interest: … I now know what a Balliboe is. > >>> >> … Based on the note in the left column of the first page, Audley > was apparently among those protestant royalists who were penalized by > Cromwell with the settlement act of 1652. > >>> >> > >>> >> Rick Smoll > >>> >> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >>> >> From: elwyn soutter <[email protected]> > >>> >> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List < > [email protected]> > >>> >> Cc: rsmoll999 <[email protected]> > >>> >> Sent: Thu, May 21, 2020 9:27 pm > >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster > 1610 - 1633 > >>> >> > >>> >> Rick, The surname, the general location and thefamily denomination > all point to them being settlers who probably arrived inIreland in the > 1600s. MacLysaght’s surnames of Ireland describesMorrison as “an English > name numerous inUlster.” The location ie Tyrone, is a county heavily > settled by Scots &English in that period, and the family denomination > (Methodist in 1901) alsopoints to them being incomers. (They would almost > certainly have been Church ofIreland – ie Anglican- in earlier times, prior > to Methodism’s arrival inIreland). So in effect you have 3pointers to them > being of settler origins. The Muster Rolls c 1630 show a number ofMorrisons > in Ireland, and one in Tyrone, but none in the Barony of Omagh East(which > includes Loughterush) so that points to a post 1630 arrival in > theLoughterush area, if not in Ireland. It’s very rare to find any > documentationfor the 1600s, unless you were an Undertaker or major land > owner, or had landforfeit after the 1641 rebellion. Theearliest likely > records might be in the Registry of Deeds which start around1709. If the > family registered a lease or other significant document, thatsometimes > gives you a date. Failing that, church records may help. KilskeeryChurch of > Ireland records start in 1767 so you might find them there. For somepeople > the tithe applotment records in the late 1820s/early 1830s are often > theearliest records to be found. I searched the PRONI e-catalogue but see > nomention there of Morrison in Loughterush other than in the tithes in > 1826.There were no comprehensive records of when people first acquired > land. Formost 17th century settlers, the first 150 years or so of their > timein Ireland are lost in the mists of time. Elwyn > >>> >> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 03:06, rsmoll999 via CoTyroneList < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Peter ... thanks for responding ... the links you sent are not > working for me. I'll do some more hunting for those sites.Sent from my > Sprint Samsung Galaxy S9. > >>> >> -------- Original message --------From: Peter McKittrick via > CoTyroneList <[email protected]> Date: 5/21/20 8:43 PM > (GMT-06:00) To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" < > [email protected]> Cc: Peter McKittrick < > [email protected]> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family > Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633 A past Genealogical Society of Victoria > (Australia) handout indicates that Morrison appears in Scottish names in > Tyrone, 1610-1633 based on muster rolls and estate maps.Sources: > Brian Orr, Plantation of Ireland and the Ulster Scots published on > http://www.irishclans.com/ <http://www.irishclans.com/> > Gwen Rawlings-Barry, The Ulster Plantation (1605-1697) published on > http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/ < > http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/> (website not found).Peter > McKittrick> On 22 May 2020, at 10:23 am, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList < > [email protected]> wrote:> > Rick, My guess is that they > could have been part of the plantation of Ulster in the 17thC. I > suspect(based on my surname) that my ancestors may have been part of that > event too but have not been able to find any records of who arrived from > where and when. Any help (thanks Len S. for your earlier help) would be > appreciated. Gordon> > On 22/05/2020 3:14 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList > wrote:>> My Morrison ancestors occupied a farm in the Loughterush townland > (Kilskeery Parish) from at least the mid 1700s until 1970 when the last > Morrison on the farm passed away (he was a bachelor), and the farm was sold > at public auction. The earliest ancestor I have found records for was > Edward Morrison, and the earliest reference to Loughterush was with the > birth of a daughter of his in 1781.>> My question is: Is there a way to > find out when the Morrisons first came to occupy the farm in Loughterush?>> > Thank you for any help on this.>> >> Rick Smoll>> > _______________________________________________>> CoTyroneList Mailing > List>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected]>> > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com>> > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY> > -- > > _________________________________> Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, > South Australia.> Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon > <http://www.ozemail.com.au/%7Eneredon> Skype id: neredon> Emails: > [email protected] [email protected]> > > > _______________________________________________> CoTyroneList Mailing > List> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected]> > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com> > Mailing List Archive: > https://goo.gl/mQCKrY_______________________________________________CoTyroneList > Mailing ListMailing List Email Address: > [email protected] Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.comMailing > List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> CoTyroneList Mailing List > >>> >> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] > >>> >> Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > >>> >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> CoTyroneList Mailing List > >>> >> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] > >>> >> Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > >>> >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> CoTyroneList Mailing List > >>> >> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] > >>> >> Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > >>> >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> CoTyroneList Mailing List > >>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] > >>> Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > >>> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > _______________________________________________ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > _______________________________________________ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
