Just in case my email didn’t go to the mailing list, I’ll repeat my response to Elwyn Souter: Elwyn, at no stage did I suggest it was a “dodge” thank you.
Peter Sent from my iPhone > On 29 Jun 2020, at 8:16 pm, Peter McKittrick <[email protected]> wrote: > > Elwyn, at no time did I suggest it was a “dodge” thank you. > > Peter > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On 29 Jun 2020, at 7:24 pm, elwyn soutter <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >> >> Regarding “reps of” cases, it was common for there to be significant delays >> in winding up of some estates. That could be a combination of slow or >> ineffective executors or it could be because there were disputes or other >> legal matters which delayed things. >> >> As a random search, I went to the PRONI wills website and looked for people >> who died between 1858 and 1862 but whose estates were not granted probate >> until between 1890 and 1900. There are 36 such cases. So it took up to 32 >> years for probate to be granted in a fairly significant number of cases. And >> until that was done the executors had control over lease renewal etc. So any >> property transactions relating to those estates would have “reps of” for >> many many years. (It wasn’t a dodge to avoid a new lease, as Peter suggests. >> It was just that the owner was dead but the property had not yet been passed >> on formally to the person who had inherited it. So the person with temporary >> jurisdiction, and landlord, was the executor(s). >> >> Here’s a William Bradley who died in 1877. Probate was finally granted in >> 1940. Just a slight delay of 63 years. (The estate was valued at a whopping >> £25). >> >> Bradley William of Drumard county Tyrone farmer died 26 January 1877 >> Administration W/A Londonderry 13 September to Enoch Bradley farmer. Effects >> £25. Probate: 13 September 1940. >> >> On many of the lengthy delay cases you will find the letters “d.b.n” in the >> probate abstract. DBN is short for “De bonis non” a term used by the Probate >> Court when dealing with estates where the original executor(s) did not >> fulfil their obligations to the deceased, perhaps because they were overseas >> or even dead themselves, and no-one else took any action to resolve things. >> >> >> >> Elwyn >> >>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:25, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Hi Rick, you asked for an example of "Representatives of [Name] being >>> listed in relation to tenancies. The example I’ve seen is when the Altmore >>> Estate was auctioned in 1872 and the sale prospectus listed all the >>> existing lease agreements including one over an Altmore property i.n.o. >>> Robert McKittrick where the Tenants Names are recorded as "Representatives >>> of Robert McKittrick". This document is available on subscription through >>> Find My Past Landed Estates Court Rentals1850-1885. By 1860 and Griffith, >>> Robert’s son John (don’t think he was the eldest) is in Occupation of the >>> property and by 1869 Robert had died, but in 1872 the lease agreement with >>> Reps of Robert McKittrick was still being relied upon. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Peter McKittrick >>> >>> > On 28 Jun 2020, at 8:33 am, Peter McKittrick <[email protected]> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Rick, good topic. The only thing I’ve noticed is that the lessee is >>> > sometimes described as “Representatives of.....“ May be to avoid having >>> > to draw up a new lease until it was absolutely necessary say when the >>> > lessor changed. >>> > >>> > Peter >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> >> On 28 Jun 2020, at 6:20 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList >>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Hello all …I've been having difficulty finding information concerning >>> >> how tenancy was passed along from generation to generation on the >>> >> plantation farms. What was the legal framework for inheriting the lease >>> >> on the farm that the family had been occupying … in our case for at >>> >> least 150 years prior to the land acts at the end of the 19th century? >>> >> Hoping somebody might be able to steer me somewhere on this issue. >>> >> Also, any insight on how a decision was made within a family regarding >>> >> which son (or daughter) would assume responsibility for the lease? >>> >> Thanks, as always … >>> >> Rick Smoll >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: elwyn soutter <[email protected]> >>> >> To: James McKane <[email protected]> >>> >> Cc: Rick Smoll <[email protected]>; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List >>> >> <[email protected]> >>> >> Sent: Thu, Jun 11, 2020 8:21 pm >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - >>> >> 1633 >>> >> >>> >> Rick, Ballyboe is from the Irish words “Baile bo”meaning “cow land.” >>> >> According to Philip Robinson - “The Plantation of Ulster”,a ballyboe was >>> >> “A small Irish land division which, before the plantation,represented >>> >> the territory within which several families worked the land.Although the >>> >> real area of the ballyboe varied greatly with the quality of theland, it >>> >> was assumed by the plantation surveyors to contain 60 acres ofprofitable >>> >> land in most areas of north-west Ulster. Many modern townlands >>> >> haveevolved from these ballyboes.” Not all land in Ireland was >>> >> requisitionedby the Crown at the time of the Plantation. At least a >>> >> third remained in thehands of local Irish landlords, normally provided >>> >> they agreed to be loyal tothe Crown. An obvious example would bethe >>> >> Maguires who had lands in Fermanagh. Chunks of land were declared >>> >> forfeitfollowing the 1641 uprising and reallocated. Details in the Down >>> >> survey: http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php Robinson spends >>> >> some time discussing theorigins of settler names in Tyrone, and to what >>> >> extent Scottish undertakers hadScots tenants, and English undertakers >>> >> had English tenants. The implicationbeing that they originated in their >>> >> landlords respective estates. However therewas evidently a lot of >>> >> mixing. For example on p122 he says: The evidence of Scots settling >>> >> outsidetheir allocated baronies of Strabane and Mountjoy is supplemented >>> >> by a statementof Lord Audley’s in 1614 when he claimed that his estate >>> >> of Finagh and Rarone inOmagh barony had as many Scots as English in it. >>> >> Although there is considerable degree ofcontinuity between 1630 and 1666 >>> >> in the distributional pattern of Britishsettlement, and indeed in the >>> >> persistence of English and Scottish localities,the actual surnames on >>> >> most estates did change dramatically. This turnover ofpersonnel cannot >>> >> be attributed simply to the ravages of the 1641 rebellion, forcomparable >>> >> changes can be observed between 1622 and 1630. A high degree oftenant >>> >> mobility is a striking characteristic of plantation settlement, >>> >> despitethe continuity of settlement patterns.” He goes on to discuss >>> >> colonial spread. “In1622 the percentage of Scots on any Tyrone estate >>> >> was closely related towhether or not the estate was Scottish owned, and >>> >> only marginally related tothe physical distance from Londonderry as the >>> >> natural entry point for Scottishsettlers. However by 1630 the gap >>> >> between the statistical significance of thesetwo factors had narrowed, >>> >> and by 1666 it was the distance from Londonderrywhich was most >>> >> significant. This supports the model of colonization outlinedabove, >>> >> whereby the process of direct plantation, with subsequent >>> >> internalmigration operated simultaneously with that of colonial spread. >>> >> Furthermore thecontention that colonial spread became relatively more >>> >> important than directplantation with time is also supported.” (This >>> >> continues for pages but you willhopefully get the general drift. >>> >> Manysettlers in Tyrone and particularly the Scots arrived via >>> >> Londonderry and movedacross Tyrone. Some stayed put and some moved >>> >> about. After 40 years colonialspread meant that a significant percentage >>> >> were no longer in the place wherethey first settled). Loughterush is in >>> >> the barony of Omagh East.For me, the absence of Morrisons in that part >>> >> of Tyrone in the Muster Rolls (iec 1630) strongly suggests your >>> >> ancestors must have there arrived afterthat. There’s only 1 Morison in >>> >> Tyronein the Muster Rolls, a Robert Morsion in Strabane barony. Perhaps >>> >> your familywere connected to him and moved south to Loughterush. So >>> >> colonial spread? Your question is whether Audley brought theMorisons >>> >> over? I doubt he brought them over himself because he appears to >>> >> haveacquired those lands from his uncle, Lord Castlehaven who was the >>> >> originalUndertaker. The family were from Petersfield in Hampshire. >>> >> Morison is not a name particularly common inthat part of England so that >>> >> would make me doubt they were Castlehaven tenantsin England. But I might >>> >> be wrong. Elwyn >>> >> On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 01:21, James McKane <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> A search of the CoTyroneIreland.com Tithe Applotment Index shows this >>> >> entry >>> >> >>> >> | MORRISON | Edward | Loughterush | Sloy Manor, Kilskerry 1826 >>> >> | >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Jim McKane >>> >> Kitchener, Ontario >>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:02 PM Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList >>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I located a copy of the 1654-1656 Civil Survey that covers the townland >>> >> of Loughterush in Kilskeery Parish … this obviously does not list the >>> >> tenants names, only the owner … but there is interesting information >>> >> there that for me begs some questions that perhaps some of you could >>> >> help me with. I have attached the top page with the header that >>> >> describes the area and names the owner, and then the page that lists >>> >> Laghterish (older spelling or misspelling of Loughterush) among the >>> >> townlands in his possession. >>> >> Questions:1. Is there any reason to have confidence that Col. Audley >>> >> Mervin would have been the one to have brought the Morrisons over to >>> >> Loughterush? 2. Were all of the lands of Ulster apportioned out in the >>> >> time frame around 1610, or did it take a longer period of time (ie, >>> >> could Mervin have been granted his land after 1630?) He was also listed >>> >> among those who came to the aid of Londonderry during the siege by James >>> >> II in 1690, so he was not likely an original grantee in 1610.3.The total >>> >> acreage for the townlands of Lisnahanna, Loughterush, and Derryvokenan >>> >> (?) is listed as 65 acres … there is obviously a lot more than 65 acres >>> >> there (even Irish acres) ; the Morrison farm alone was about 40-50 acres >>> >> … could that be referring to only the amount of acreage under >>> >> cultivation? >>> >> Other items of interest: … I now know what a Balliboe is. >>> >> … Based on the note in the left column of the first page, Audley was >>> >> apparently among those protestant royalists who were penalized by >>> >> Cromwell with the settlement act of 1652. >>> >> >>> >> Rick Smoll >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: elwyn soutter <[email protected]> >>> >> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <[email protected]> >>> >> Cc: rsmoll999 <[email protected]> >>> >> Sent: Thu, May 21, 2020 9:27 pm >>> >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 - >>> >> 1633 >>> >> >>> >> Rick, The surname, the general location and thefamily denomination all >>> >> point to them being settlers who probably arrived inIreland in the >>> >> 1600s. MacLysaght’s surnames of Ireland describesMorrison as “an >>> >> English name numerous inUlster.” The location ie Tyrone, is a county >>> >> heavily settled by Scots &English in that period, and the family >>> >> denomination (Methodist in 1901) alsopoints to them being incomers. >>> >> (They would almost certainly have been Church ofIreland – ie Anglican- >>> >> in earlier times, prior to Methodism’s arrival inIreland). So in effect >>> >> you have 3pointers to them being of settler origins. The Muster Rolls c >>> >> 1630 show a number ofMorrisons in Ireland, and one in Tyrone, but none >>> >> in the Barony of Omagh East(which includes Loughterush) so that points >>> >> to a post 1630 arrival in theLoughterush area, if not in Ireland. It’s >>> >> very rare to find any documentationfor the 1600s, unless you were an >>> >> Undertaker or major land owner, or had landforfeit after the 1641 >>> >> rebellion. Theearliest likely records might be in the Registry of Deeds >>> >> which start around1709. If the family registered a lease or other >>> >> significant document, thatsometimes gives you a date. Failing that, >>> >> church records may help. KilskeeryChurch of Ireland records start in >>> >> 1767 so you might find them there. For somepeople the tithe applotment >>> >> records in the late 1820s/early 1830s are often theearliest records to >>> >> be found. I searched the PRONI e-catalogue but see nomention there of >>> >> Morrison in Loughterush other than in the tithes in 1826.There were no >>> >> comprehensive records of when people first acquired land. Formost 17th >>> >> century settlers, the first 150 years or so of their timein Ireland are >>> >> lost in the mists of time. Elwyn >>> >> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 03:06, rsmoll999 via CoTyroneList >>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Peter ... thanks for responding ... the links you sent are not working >>> >> for me. I'll do some more hunting for those sites.Sent from my Sprint >>> >> Samsung Galaxy S9. >>> >> -------- Original message --------From: Peter McKittrick via >>> >> CoTyroneList <[email protected]> Date: 5/21/20 8:43 PM >>> >> (GMT-06:00) To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" >>> >> <[email protected]> Cc: Peter McKittrick >>> >> <[email protected]> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family >>> >> Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633 A past Genealogical Society of Victoria >>> >> (Australia) handout indicates that Morrison appears in Scottish names in >>> >> Tyrone, 1610-1633 based on muster rolls and estate maps.Sources: >>> >> Brian Orr, Plantation of Ireland and the Ulster Scots published on >>> >> http://www.irishclans.com/ <http://www.irishclans.com/> >>> >> Gwen Rawlings-Barry, The Ulster Plantation (1605-1697) published on >>> >> http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/ >>> >> <http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/> (website not found).Peter >>> >> McKittrick> On 22 May 2020, at 10:23 am, Gordon Wilkinson via >>> >> CoTyroneList <[email protected]> wrote:> > Rick, My guess >>> >> is that they could have been part of the plantation of Ulster in the >>> >> 17thC. I suspect(based on my surname) that my ancestors may have been >>> >> part of that event too but have not been able to find any records of who >>> >> arrived from where and when. Any help (thanks Len S. for your earlier >>> >> help) would be appreciated. Gordon> > On 22/05/2020 3:14 am, Rick Smoll >>> >> via CoTyroneList wrote:>> My Morrison ancestors occupied a farm in the >>> >> Loughterush townland (Kilskeery Parish) from at least the mid 1700s >>> >> until 1970 when the last Morrison on the farm passed away (he was a >>> >> bachelor), and the farm was sold at public auction. The earliest >>> >> ancestor I have found records for was Edward Morrison, and the earliest >>> >> reference to Loughterush was with the birth of a daughter of his in >>> >> 1781.>> My question is: Is there a way to find out when the Morrisons >>> >> first came to occupy the farm in Loughterush?>> Thank you for any help >>> >> on this.>> >> Rick Smoll>> >>> >> _______________________________________________>> CoTyroneList Mailing >>> >> List>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected]>> >>> >> Change Your Preferences: >>> >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com>> >>> >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY> > -- > >>> >> _________________________________> Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, >>> >> South Australia.> Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon Skype id: >>> >> neredon> Emails: [email protected] >>> >> [email protected]> > > >>> >> _______________________________________________> CoTyroneList Mailing >>> >> List> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected]> >>> >> Change Your Preferences: >>> >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com> >>> >> Mailing List Archive: >>> >> https://goo.gl/mQCKrY_______________________________________________CoTyroneList >>> >> Mailing ListMailing List Email Address: >>> >> [email protected] Your Preferences: >>> >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.comMailing >>> >> List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> CoTyroneList Mailing List >>> >> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >>> >> Change Your Preferences: >>> >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >>> >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> CoTyroneList Mailing List >>> >> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >>> >> Change Your Preferences: >>> >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >>> >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> CoTyroneList Mailing List >>> >> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >>> >> Change Your Preferences: >>> >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >>> >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CoTyroneList Mailing List >>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >>> Change Your Preferences: >>> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >>> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY _______________________________________________ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
