On 28-jul-08, at 08:45, steve uurtamo wrote:
the $500K/year to hire an "expert team of programmers" to incorporate
everyone's source code into an open-source framework is pretty
wasteful.
Well, I disagree. Now all Go programmers waste a lot of time doing
exactly the same things.
just let people dig through the code on their own. it'd be good
enough,
and save $500K/year.
That I believe is pretty wasteful of the time of talented programmers.
there's no real reason to give out the hardware, either, unless you
want to
encourage people to spend their time each year developing tinier
and tinier
high-powered wireless devices for cheating. all they need is access
to an equivalent machine (say, ssh access) during the year to test
and write speed optimizations.
The hardware is just a small component of the cost. The main point is
to create equal ground to compete on, however that is accomplished. I
don't believe giving remote access will be very handy for developers,
just to save a little money. Giving a machine is also an incentive to
end high on the CGOS type ranking. And it ensures every competitor
has access to the same hardware for half a year at least to work on.
I don't see how it would encourage cheating, rather the opposite.
also, after this ran for a few years and started to get very
competitive, it'd
be difficult to convince people to give away their source code
every year for
the chance to win $100K/year. one reason is that commercial
exploitation
of their code would begin to be worth more as the strength improved
significantly.
I think $100K is enough to forego the benefits for commercial
exploitation. I believe those that decide to go it alone will soon
get left behind. If everyone has the same starting point, the value
of commercial exploitation of at most one year of work will unlikely
exceed $100K. The incentive to not participate because of the
possibility of commercial exploitation will actually become less each
year, not more. Commercial exploitation also has its sacrifices. I
know this very well from practice.
another way to do all of this is to set aside a large chunk of
money, let
it accumulate interest, and have small milestones set each year that
can pay prizes from a portion of that interest if they are met. this
automatically
ends up raising the value of the milestones over time.
Yes, it's another way. I thought about that too. But I believe it's
too dependent on the judgement that may easily become arbitrary. I'd
prefer to let a competition decide which ideas are best instead of a
Nobel-prize type of panel. Although I would consider a setup side-by-
side with the competition where there's a good cash award for the
best innovation of the year. I kept my post short in order not to
clutter the main idea with too many details.
So all in all, I pretty much disagree with all your points.
s.
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 4:24 AM, Mark Boon
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It's a question I have often contemplated. I don't think you can do
anything now that will greatly influence what the level in 2010 will
be. You have to think a little longer term. What it takes is fairly
simple, it takes a million bucks per year (roughly). Getting that
million bucks is not so simple, but if I had it to spend on
computer-Go, here's what I'd do:
- Use a system like CGOS to create an online testing system /
community.
- At some predetermined date the top n programs (say 16) get a
standard state-of-the-art PC to work on.
- Half a year later those 16 programs play an extensive tournament
using the standard hardware.
- Prize-money is $100K, $80K, $60K, $40K and $20K for the top five.
- All participants contribute their source-code to an open-source
project created for this event.
- The cost of organising the competition above is about $500K per
year, the other $500K is spent on hiring a team of expert programmers
who incorporate the contributions of the competing programs into an
open-source framework.
This is sketchy and lacks some vital details, but you get the idea.
The main points are
a) Everybody starts from an equal base each year.
b) The PC used is a standardized piece of equipment.
c) The prize-money is enough to make people turn in their source-
code.
Since coming in 2nd or 3rd isnt much less an achievement as coming in
1st, the prize-money is also not much less.
With a competition like this in place, I think the progress in a
decade will be astounding.
Now we have to find a sugar-daddy who's willing to put in the $1M
each year :-)
Mark
On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Darren Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I have a strong interest in seeing a 19x19 computer go program
that is
at least 3-dan by 2010. The recent jump in strength on the 9x9
board has
given me new hope and I want to ask people here, especially the
authors
of strong programs, what you now need to make the next jump in
strength.
There seem to be four broad categories:
* More hardware (CPU cycles? Memory? Faster networking? Do you just
need that hardware for offline tuning, or for playing too?)
* More data
* New algorithms (if so, to solve exactly what? evaluation?
search? other?)
* More community
By community I mean things like this mailing list, CGOS, open source
projects, etc.
By data I mean things like: game records, or board positions,
marked up
with correct/incorrect moves; game records generally; pattern
libraries;
test suites; opening libraries.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash, i18n,
linux, ...)
_______________________________________________
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@computer-go.org
http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
_______________________________________________
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@computer-go.org
http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
_______________________________________________
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@computer-go.org
http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
_______________________________________________
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@computer-go.org
http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
