I don't seem to have made my original point clearly.
What I was trying to say was that I've taken 10" off the keel of my 38 and added a wide 1150 lb bulb to compensate for lost righting moment. The wide bulb may act like a wing or an end plate on the keel I have left. But you can't tell from my experience that shortening the keel has an appreciable impact on pointing if it done right. Maybe I was lucky, but my 38 sails well at 28-29 apparent in normal air, and foots off to about 30-31 for best VMG in lighter air. My comments about Edge, the local 35 mk2, were a response to your comment about pointing at 30 and getting better VMG when footed off to 33. Edge has been sailed by the owner and a pretty regular crew for at least 13 years that I know of. For years before buying the 35, they sailed on a C&C 27. They do well, and have actually won the North Carolina Offshore Championship at least once. Their performance seems best between 30 and 33 or so - about the same as you report - and that seems to be 3 or 4 degrees more off the apparent wind than I can achieve with the 38. BTW, my 25 will point at about 32 or 33, but seems faster when footed off to about 34-35 apparent. Maybe this shows some sort of relationship - the longer the waterline and the deeper the keel, the higher you can sail. Regarding my comment on the PHRF ratings of my 38 and the local 35 Mk2, when I raced with credit for the keel mod at 120 (with the same crew for about 5 years) and he raced at 126, we were about evenly matched.. When I got my last PHRF rating (in 2007/2008) the fixed 2 blade prop was worth only +3 seconds and I never asked for any adjustment. Now James reports they gave him +12 seconds for the prop on Delaney, which would bring me up to 132 and give me the sort of advantage over the 35 that you would expect from a 38. But, hey, I'm a cruiser now not a racer. Most of the time the boat is single handed or has only 1 crew, and I only do 2 or 3 charity races a year so I'll always be having pickup crew who are experienced racers but inexperienced with my boat. Then again, it might be a lot of fun to go to Oriental more often and race head to head with James' 38, Delancey. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of dwight veinot Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 3:31 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel mods vs Phrf Rating That's a good point for the guy considering the 37+ for racing.he will need more regular and good crew to race effectively.not just more water.but Rick, I think your boat is probably rated fairly at 120 and I am sure you and your crew will sail better as time goes on and I bet you could find ways to gain a lot more than 3 seconds a mile...upwind legs are the most important.just think if the crew sailing that 35 MKII would have been skilled with upwind sailing on the boat.like they probably may not have known that footing off a few degrees would have benefitted them over the length of the leg and they probably tried to point with your 38 which from your accounts does very well sailing closer to the wind.nice boat your 38.but some day they may learn and then what???argue about handicaps and apply for change.that is the one system that is ever changing. Our local race committees even tried to change it from one series to another during a season based on performance during the last previous series.to keep poorly sailed boats interested.no incentive to improve in that system and I did not like it.I don't race anymore here but I believe that approach no longer exists Dwight Veinot C&C 35 MKII, Alianna Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS _____ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass Sent: November 12, 2012 2:15 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel mods vs Phrf Rating 12 seconds?! I should have applied for a new PHRF certificate a LONG time ago. I thought it was only +3, and I can screw up 3 seconds a mile in a heartbeat - particularly now that I only do charity races and use a pickup crew. Now where did I put my PHRF rating folder... Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of jtsails Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 12:29 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel mods vs Phrf Rating Rick, I got the 129 rating based on a +12 adjustment for the two blade fixed prop. I haven't (yet) received an adjustment for the roller furler (+3). There is also an adjustment available for using a 135% headsail as your largest(111% to 135% is +3), but I don't think you will get anything for a 140%(136% to 155% is no adjustment). I also don't see any adjustment for undersized spinnakers, only penalties for oversized. James SV Delaney C&C 38 MkII Oriental, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Brass <mailto:rickbr...@earthlink.net> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:08 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel mods vs Phrf Rating Dwight; The NC PHRF base rating is 117 for the 38 Mk1 or Mk2, and 126 for the 35 Mk2. 9 seconds difference is consistent with the spread in your area. I presume you have more wind than we do. When I was racing regularly, my rating was 120 because of the keel mod. I raced against a 35 Mk2 that was rated at 126 and we were fairly evenly matched. I was faster upwind, and could outpoint him by 3 or 4 degrees, and he was faster downwind. Race outcome was largely a matter of the time difference to the upwind mark. Pointing depends on the wind - the higher the apparent wind, the better I can point. In typical winds (10 to 15 apparent around here; say 8 to 10 true.) I can point to 28 or 29 apparent. Above 28 I am pinched and lose speed. The boat is fastest, according to the GPS which shows the velocity towards the mark and not true VMG, when footed off slightly to about 30 apparent. Again, that seems to be pretty consistent with your experience. I just looked at the current NC-PHRF information on line, and I see that The Edge (the 35 Mk2) is now rated at 129, possibly because of the above deck furler. I also see that Delaney, a 38 in Oriental that belongs to another of the listers, is rated at 129 as well. Perhaps I should go back and get a new PHRF rating? I never did apply for an adjustment for the fixed 2 blade prop, and now I have a 140% roller furling genoa that tacks 18" above the deck, a non-adjustable baby stay, a radically undersized cruising A-sail for a spinnaker, and a radar arch and dinghy davits on the stern. I'm pretty sure all that would justify a 126 rating. I wonder how Delaney got to 129? Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of dwight veinot Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 8:58 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel mods vs Phrf Rating Rick You say "I can still point up to under 30 degrees apparent," My 35 MKII will sail at 30 degrees to apparent wind but I have found that my VMG (wind) is highest when I sail at about 33 degrees to apparent. I don't have the numbers for all of my headsails because I have only been carrying my furling 135 since I installed my Raymarine ST60 system which gave me the ability to display VMG(wind) on the fly. I would expect that I may get different results with different sized headsails and different wind and or sea conditions; like with my racing 150 in say 10-12 apparent and flat seas VMG (wind) may be best at 30 apparent or below. By New England PHRF my 35 MKII has a base rating of 120, slightly slower than your 38MKI (111 by New England numbers) but you race it at 120. My question to you is: do you find pointing at under 30 degrees to apparent to result in your best VMG to weather under all conditions? Dwight Veinot C&C 35 MKII, Alianna Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS _____ _______________________________________________ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5390 - Release Date: 11/12/12
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