I actually installed Kunbuntu and almost barfed. But it is not political. Its just things I expected to be there were not there. So I felt like a shark fish out of water and I came into this list and chatted a bit and then dropped it because I had more pressing issues and Kubuntu or Debian were not high on the list at that time.
>From what I saw I would say maybe Kunbuntu is suitable for mere mortals. I was looking for compilers and editors like EMACS and they seemed to be missing. Of course I can get them. Here is what I will propose with the Sarge install. How about we organise an install fest. I'll plan on bringing in the machine and this will be after I have it cloned on the latest version of Debian. In situations like this I tend to be very paranoid so I will suggest: I'll pick up another drive (this is an 80GB) and we mirror everything onto the new drive and then I do have spare boxen so we install the clone drive and now we can play worry free. We can only play with the install - there are confidential copyrighted materials here. On a clone I guess I could go through and delete them. These are at the application levels for the most part. Also - I like what I read. I would be very happy to work with you on an off list basis because unlike you I don't get my jollies looking for joy under the computer hood. I have many demands on my time. I have no problem what so ever that you like to do what you do and I would like to work with you. I guess you have my email. I have to take on a complete rebuild of this current desktop. I would thoroughly enjoy working with you (and any other interested people) and maybe I can even sweeten the deal. You see I am a bee keeper. I have hives to look after and bees arriving soon and I need to be ready for my bees. (BTW - there is a great! Bee Movie. Its called Bee Movie. Only thing Jerry got wrong amounst a lot of other things is that in bee land he is the drone!) So if we do an install fest then depending.. I am sure I can offer at least a jar of honey for whoever wants to participate. and this is the simple reason I don't want to spend hours looking under the hood. I have livestock and if anyone wnats to look under the hood of my hives so to speak then I do always have spare bee suits. So new bees are welcome. :-) As an aside: Totally off topic. If anyone wants to bee a bee keeper then I can help. This is why Kubuntu VS Debian took a back seat. It is not political. I do have spare bee suits and I do have spare computer parts. It is not political. It is the question of alternatives. On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 06:28:49PM -0700, Gustin Johnson wrote: > I have not had the experiences of either of you except when I have > cluttered up my install with 3rd party and/or self built packages. > I have found Debian to be a little more fragile in this regard. > > Having said that, I have both Ubuntu and Debian installs that have gone > through several updates without issue. At this point I actually automate > my updates and reboots (the script checks to see if a reboot is required). > I do not even gracefully end my sessions. Firefox complains that it was > not shut down properly but continues to work as expected, even remembering > the 50 odd tabs that I had open. In short my desktop (and server installs > for that matter) have never been more stable. If there are no reboots, my > insane firefox sessions can last for months (I open FF and leave it open, > it only closes when I reboot). There may be a plugin/extension messing > around with your FF install as well. There is a safe mode where you can > test to see if the problem is in fact with an extension. The point is that > there is nothing inherently unstable or broken with FF on Linux. > > I have to respond to this: > "This is a very simple data base operation. All we need is a program to > walk the directory tree and confirm required files are present and this > is what apt has to do anyways. Well I would think eight (8) years > should be sufficent". > > The apt (and yum on rpm based distros) system(s) date back to the 90s. They > are all pretty rock solid at this point as long as you don't mess around > under the hood (for example by manually compiling binaries and libraries). > By design the system searches /usr/local first, so that you can have > multiple versions of binaries and/or libraries installed for developing and > or testing. It is simple to revert to the system default. If you > *exclusively* use apt-get or one of the many front ends, you should not > have the problems described above. While you can manually build binaries > and libraries and they can work after an upgrade (I do this for nmap for > example), there is a non-trivial chance of something going wrong. The > moral of the story is that if you value system stability, stick to the > system provided tools for installing and maintaining packages. > > There are even sophisticated systems in place for changing the system > defaults by using symlinks. Have a look at update-alternatives or if you > are using Debian, update-dependencies. The reality is far more > sophisticated and elegant than the solution you suggest. It really is > robust if used properly (which it will be by default). This is not the > sort of thing that a regular user will need to use or see, it is only for > those people who are interested (or like me compelled) to monkey about > under the hood. It bears repeating, none of this will be visible nor > required to an end user who only uses the system tools for installing > and maintaining software. > > I am sure there is room for improvement but the basic operations are pretty > solid at this point which is why people are saying 'Installing and > maintaining modern Linux is a non issue for the potential user now. Lets > move on". The problem comes from tinkering with the internals. Just like > mucking about with the registry in Windows can cause issues, straying > outside of your distributions management tools can also be problematic. > This is kind of a fundamental truth about any such system. > > What this means is that I suspect there is something else going on with > your installs. It is possible that there is something wrong with Debian, > since their stance on non-free software can be a bit of a pain for end > users. This is primarily why I do not recommend Debian to non-technical > people (or anyone who does not have a lot of free time to troubleshoot) > There are many user friendly options to choose from. I love Debian but > there can be some rough edges, especially with proprietary drivers, codecs, > and the like. Even though I can fix most of the problems that crop up, I > choose to use other distributions that require less work to maintain since > I want to spend my time doing something else. On the server side I have no > problem with Debian, in fact I prefer it to everything else most of the > time (Debian stable is now what Ubuntu LTS should have been). > > If you want a more hands free approach to deploy to other people, Ubuntu > (Kubuntu or Lubuntu are fantastic and even better than vanilla Ubuntu IMHO) > would be my first choice, Fedora my second. SolidXK (http://solydxk.com/) > shows promise, though I have not tested it enough. > > Most of the graphics subsystem are handled by xrandr, with the GUI tools > just acting like as a front end to this utility. The problem is that this > depends on the correct driver already being installed. If you have > switched from one vendor to another (Intel/nVidia/AMD) you have to install > the correct driver (fglrx or nvidia). Ubuntu has a nice gui front end for > this, Debian to my knowledge does not. Once you have installed the correct > drivers (either via the GUI or CLI apt/aptitude front ends), you may need > to "sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg" and then reboot. I regularly > switch between all three GPU vendors with little issue. My GUI based > installs are currently all Ubuntu (with KDE mainly), so YMMV with Debian. > > Also I am not interested in hearing anyone's political or emotional > opinions on why Ubuntu sucks, or rpm distros suck etc. Apt and yum are > awesome (though I would choose apt over yum). If you want to use Debian > with your proprietary drivers go ahead, it can probably be made to work. > Please understand that your choice of distro does have consequences, which > in this case means spending a lot more time keeping things running. > > Hth, > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:26 PM, Terrell Larson <t...@terralogic.net> wrote: > > > The last time I upgraded was quite a while ago - from Debian woody to > > Sarge. This upgrade was a DISASTER. So much for promises. > > > > (I think there is a song about that) > > > > A process when it is shutting down much call wait() and this is when > > system resouces are released. Until wait() is called the process goes > > into a zombie state. I have firefox for instance die about once a week > > since say about 2006. Oh it works... It just spews a few 100 zombies, > > rns out of memory and the kernal kills it and cleans up the mess. > > > > Other than an annoyance this is not a big problem for me. I simply > > restart it when its convient and go do something else while it > > reloads... which it ususlly but not always does and if not then I do > > have checkpoint files in the sessionstore.js files which in my case live > > in: .mozilla/firefox/jfthz6j9.default> > > > > Its a library mismatch issue. Likely nothing more than that. So where > > is the utility which can spin through the libraries and actually CONFIRM > > that the proper versions are present. > > > > This is a very simple data base operation. All we need is a program to > > walk the directory tree and confirm required files are present and this > > is what apt has to do anyways. Well I would think eight (8) years > > should be sufficent. > > > > So I am going back to the way I use to install an OS. I buy a new > > computer and if I can't justify that I at least buy a new hard drive! > > > > I think this speaks to the comments below. > > > > What we need are very simple tools which can actually access a common > > data base of dependancies which hopefully will run off the appropriate > > mirrors. Then if a mistake is made it can be corrected and I would > > suggest the next time said utility is run it should advise the client of > > any other apps which might have a correction. And I'll speak (write) to > > this next. > > > > Several years ago I was in a chat room and someone was trying to get a > > CDBurner working. This was alas in Debian Sarge and I think the app was > > k3b. I submitted the solution, perhaps to the wrong place. A year > > later someone else on IRC was asking the same question. So I told him > > where to go. A year later: No improvemnt. > > > > I conclude we have what Cool Hand Luke suggested is a failure to > > communicate. > > > > ------------- > > > > Now I have a question: I'm about to install the latest version of > > Debian. It will not be an upgrade. I'm not making that mistake again. > > > > The video in the machine in question is not what will be there down the > > track. At this point I don't even know what card it is - but its good > > enough for an install. Down the track I might put in two single monitor > > cards - likely old decrepid ones, or I might try a 5 head card. > > > > These all required TOTALLY different drivers. > > > > How hard is it to switch video systems? If a card dies and there is no > > spare how does one even get into a GUI to reconfigure a new card? > > > > I have NEVER liked GUI's for this simple reason. BUT - I believe it is > > feasible to write a system tool which can run in "EITHER" command prompt > > -or- GUI modes. Does anyone know if there is anything out there which > > acutally does something like this? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 03:55:43PM -0700, Mel Walters wrote: > > > Linux. Debian (Stable) > > > > > > For the intense hobbyist only? > > > Here is just a question: > > > How much truth is in the statement 'Installing and maintaining modern > > > Linux is a non issue for the potential user now. Lets move on.'? > > > > > > My recent experience was in helping a friend fix his upgrades after his > > > GUI upgrade gave an unhelpful error code he was unable to overcome. > > > The issues appeared to be authentication and the GUI hiding what was > > > going on in the background. Others prefer the command line and ncursers > > > like programs (aptitude) so they can see what is going on. With out my > > > intermittent help he would be unable use Linux a lot of the time. > > > Some of it is just computer user issues, but I'll bet that's not the > > > whole picture. > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > Mel > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > clug-talk mailing list > > > clug-talk@clug.ca > > > http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca > > > Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) > > > **Please remove these lines when replying > > > > _______________________________________________ > > clug-talk mailing list > > clug-talk@clug.ca > > http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca > > Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) > > **Please remove these lines when replying > > > _______________________________________________ > clug-talk mailing list > clug-talk@clug.ca > http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca > Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) > **Please remove these lines when replying _______________________________________________ clug-talk mailing list clug-talk@clug.ca http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) **Please remove these lines when replying
