Thank you for the offer to help, much appreciated! I will contact you after March 1 to arrange for a time that is convenient for you.
Jerry Mel Walters <melwalt...@telus.net> wrote: >I would be willing to help, your place, name the evening. > >Not sure if I can qualify as a propeller head, but I have wanted to skip >straight to anti-gravity.(yup, a bona fide space cadet:)(magic carpet) > >One of the challenges/strengths of this club is the diversity of the >users. But the bigger problem is people have less and less time now, so >the OS and programs have to work well and have very succinct manuals and >documentation. This puts off the intelligent users too. > >Lets be sensitive to all pinched nerves and try moving on to the >positive. > >Thanks, > >Mel Walters > >On Fri, 2014-02-21 at 10:40 -0500, Jerry Rukavina wrote: >> Shawn, not everyone on this list is a propeller head, I am an average >> user. >> >> I am trying to learn but it is a bitch...I must be too dumb to >> understand. >> >> It is frustrating when things break or don't work at all and then having >> to spend a ton of time trying to figure out the problems. Sometimes, and >> lately all the time, that fix never happens, even though the 'helpful' >> forums claim the fix is there. >> >> And try to get someone to actually work on the box to fix it! Where are >> the millions of Linux users - not too many in Calgary, mythical I bet? I >> have not found any commercial shops that work with Linux installs and >> maintenance either. I could use some help today but can't find anyone. >> >> My time is better spent making a living instead of playing on the >> computer, your suggestion for dummies to switch to windows is looking >> more attractive. There would be more converts to Linux if things went >> easier from the start and along the journey, imho. >> >> Jerry >> >> On 2014-02-21 00:49, Shawn wrote: >> > One other factor in this discussion is not if Linux is easy enough to >> > install or not, but if the user has the tech know-how and >> > understandings to actually use the systems as they are intended. >> > Stick a standard Windows user in front of a terminal shell, and you'll >> > see much frustration and possible damage to your system. I ran into >> > this recently with a Mac based developer who had zero comfort on the >> > command line setting up basic PHP modules. >> > >> > My point is, that you can only dumb down the interfaces so much. >> > Unity is a great example of an interface aimed at the mythical average >> > user. The problem is that this mythical user seems to have been >> > getting dumber over the years. If the trend continues, the interface >> > will be a simple button labeled "do something", and the user will be >> > upset it didn't do what they wanted. >> > >> > Domain knowledge is essential to using your tools properly. If the >> > users do not understand how to use the GUI based installers, or the >> > text based ones, then they should leave installation to someone who >> > does. They can enter the picture after the desktop software is in >> > place. >> > >> > On the other hand, the user has to gain that knowledge somehow >> > (presuming they want to). At that point they need to be ready for the >> > learning experience. That experience has gotten amazingly easier over >> > the years, but it is still beneficial to understand what a "partition" >> > is, or what "mount points" are. >> > >> > So, my end thoughts on this topic is that it all depends on the user >> > who will be using the system. If they have no intention of learning >> > how to maintain and use a Linux box then they should probably stick >> > with Windows. If they are wanting to learn more about hardware, >> > networking, system administration, etc. then by all means dive in head >> > first with the distro of your choice. Ubuntu/Debian/Red Hat are all >> > good starting points with lots of support out there. >> > >> > Claiming "Installing and maintaining modern Linux is a non issue for >> > the potential user now" reflects assumptions about the base >> > experience, skills, and domain knowledge of the end user. Those >> > assumptions can quickly fall flat in the real world where it is not >> > always tech savvy folks involved. >> > >> > I'm a great example of this. Having recently been um, strongly >> > encouraged to use the Macs at work. It is a paradigm shift in how you >> > use the systems. I have come to rely on Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V, middle click >> > cut/paste, etc. These just are not there or are different on the >> > Macs. Hell my function keys don't even work as expected. I find >> > myself asking for simple things like "how do I get a screen shot?" or >> > "what is the equivalent of F6 in Chrome?" Those who know me know I'm >> > not a noob, but environmental changes are always going to be a >> > challenge. If I find it so, I'd hate to be the mythical average >> > user... >> > >> > My thoughts. >> > >> > Shawn >> > >> > On 14-02-20 06:28 PM, Gustin Johnson wrote: >> >> I have not had the experiences of either of you except when I have >> >> cluttered up my install with 3rd party and/or self built packages. >> >> I have found Debian to be a little more fragile in this regard. >> >> >> >> Having said that, I have both Ubuntu and Debian installs that have >> >> gone >> >> through several updates without issue. At this point I actually >> >> automate my updates and reboots (the script checks to see if a reboot >> >> is >> >> required). I do not even gracefully end my sessions. Firefox >> >> complains >> >> that it was not shut down properly but continues to work as expected, >> >> even remembering the 50 odd tabs that I had open. In short my desktop >> >> (and server installs for that matter) have never been more stable. If >> >> there are no reboots, my insane firefox sessions can last for months >> >> (I >> >> open FF and leave it open, it only closes when I reboot). There may >> >> be >> >> a plugin/extension messing around with your FF install as well. There >> >> is a safe mode where you can test to see if the problem is in fact >> >> with >> >> an extension. The point is that there is nothing inherently unstable >> >> or >> >> broken with FF on Linux. >> >> >> >> I have to respond to this: >> >> "This is a very simple data base operation. All we need is a program >> >> to >> >> walk the directory tree and confirm required files are present and >> >> this >> >> is what apt has to do anyways. Well I would think eight (8) years >> >> should be sufficent". >> >> >> >> The apt (and yum on rpm based distros) system(s) date back to the 90s. >> >> They are all pretty rock solid at this point as long as you don't mess >> >> around under the hood (for example by manually compiling binaries and >> >> libraries). By design the system searches /usr/local first, so that >> >> you >> >> can have multiple versions of binaries and/or libraries installed for >> >> developing and or testing. It is simple to revert to the system >> >> default. If you *exclusively* use apt-get or one of the many front >> >> ends, you should not have the problems described above. While you can >> >> manually build binaries and libraries and they can work after an >> >> upgrade >> >> (I do this for nmap for example), there is a non-trivial chance of >> >> something going wrong. The moral of the story is that if you value >> >> system stability, stick to the system provided tools for installing >> >> and >> >> maintaining packages. >> >> >> >> There are even sophisticated systems in place for changing the system >> >> defaults by using symlinks. Have a look at update-alternatives or if >> >> you are using Debian, update-dependencies. The reality is far more >> >> sophisticated and elegant than the solution you suggest. It really is >> >> robust if used properly (which it will be by default). This is not >> >> the >> >> sort of thing that a regular user will need to use or see, it is only >> >> for those people who are interested (or like me compelled) to monkey >> >> about under the hood. It bears repeating, none of this will be >> >> visible >> >> nor required to an end user who only uses the system tools for >> >> installing and maintaining software. >> >> >> >> I am sure there is room for improvement but the basic operations are >> >> pretty solid at this point which is why people are saying 'Installing >> >> and maintaining modern Linux is a non issue for the potential user >> >> now. >> >> Lets move on". The problem comes from tinkering with the internals. >> >> Just like mucking about with the registry in Windows can cause >> >> issues, >> >> straying outside of your distributions management tools can also be >> >> problematic. This is kind of a fundamental truth about any such >> >> system. >> >> >> >> What this means is that I suspect there is something else going on >> >> with >> >> your installs. It is possible that there is something wrong with >> >> Debian, since their stance on non-free software can be a bit of a pain >> >> for end users. This is primarily why I do not recommend Debian to >> >> non-technical people (or anyone who does not have a lot of free time >> >> to >> >> troubleshoot) There are many user friendly options to choose from. I >> >> love Debian but there can be some rough edges, especially with >> >> proprietary drivers, codecs, and the like. Even though I can fix most >> >> of the problems that crop up, I choose to use other distributions that >> >> require less work to maintain since I want to spend my time doing >> >> something else. On the server side I have no problem with Debian, in >> >> fact I prefer it to everything else most of the time (Debian stable is >> >> now what Ubuntu LTS should have been). >> >> >> >> If you want a more hands free approach to deploy to other people, >> >> Ubuntu >> >> (Kubuntu or Lubuntu are fantastic and even better than vanilla Ubuntu >> >> IMHO) would be my first choice, Fedora my second. SolidXK >> >> (http://solydxk.com/) shows promise, though I have not tested it >> >> enough. >> >> >> >> Most of the graphics subsystem are handled by xrandr, with the GUI >> >> tools >> >> just acting like as a front end to this utility. The problem is that >> >> this depends on the correct driver already being installed. If you >> >> have >> >> switched from one vendor to another (Intel/nVidia/AMD) you have to >> >> install the correct driver (fglrx or nvidia). Ubuntu has a nice gui >> >> front end for this, Debian to my knowledge does not. Once you have >> >> installed the correct drivers (either via the GUI or CLI apt/aptitude >> >> front ends), you may need to "sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg" and >> >> then reboot. I regularly switch between all three GPU vendors with >> >> little issue. My GUI based installs are currently all Ubuntu (with >> >> KDE >> >> mainly), so YMMV with Debian. >> >> >> >> Also I am not interested in hearing anyone's political or emotional >> >> opinions on why Ubuntu sucks, or rpm distros suck etc. Apt and yum >> >> are >> >> awesome (though I would choose apt over yum). If you want to use >> >> Debian >> >> with your proprietary drivers go ahead, it can probably be made to >> >> work. >> >> Please understand that your choice of distro does have consequences, >> >> which in this case means spending a lot more time keeping things >> >> running. >> >> >> >> Hth, >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 5:26 PM, Terrell Larson <t...@terralogic.net >> >> <mailto:t...@terralogic.net>> wrote: >> >> >> >> The last time I upgraded was quite a while ago - from Debian woody >> >> to >> >> Sarge. This upgrade was a DISASTER. So much for promises. >> >> >> >> (I think there is a song about that) >> >> >> >> A process when it is shutting down much call wait() and this is >> >> when >> >> system resouces are released. Until wait() is called the process >> >> goes >> >> into a zombie state. I have firefox for instance die about once a >> >> week >> >> since say about 2006. Oh it works... It just spews a few 100 >> >> zombies, >> >> rns out of memory and the kernal kills it and cleans up the mess. >> >> >> >> Other than an annoyance this is not a big problem for me. I >> >> simply >> >> restart it when its convient and go do something else while it >> >> reloads... which it ususlly but not always does and if not then I >> >> do >> >> have checkpoint files in the sessionstore.js files which in my >> >> case live >> >> in: .mozilla/firefox/jfthz6j9.default> >> >> >> >> Its a library mismatch issue. Likely nothing more than that. So >> >> where >> >> is the utility which can spin through the libraries and actually >> >> CONFIRM >> >> that the proper versions are present. >> >> >> >> This is a very simple data base operation. All we need is a >> >> program to >> >> walk the directory tree and confirm required files are present and >> >> this >> >> is what apt has to do anyways. Well I would think eight (8) years >> >> should be sufficent. >> >> >> >> So I am going back to the way I use to install an OS. I buy a new >> >> computer and if I can't justify that I at least buy a new hard >> >> drive! >> >> >> >> I think this speaks to the comments below. >> >> >> >> What we need are very simple tools which can actually access a >> >> common >> >> data base of dependancies which hopefully will run off the >> >> appropriate >> >> mirrors. Then if a mistake is made it can be corrected and I >> >> would >> >> suggest the next time said utility is run it should advise the >> >> client of >> >> any other apps which might have a correction. And I'll speak >> >> (write) to >> >> this next. >> >> >> >> Several years ago I was in a chat room and someone was trying to >> >> get a >> >> CDBurner working. This was alas in Debian Sarge and I think the >> >> app was >> >> k3b. I submitted the solution, perhaps to the wrong place. A >> >> year >> >> later someone else on IRC was asking the same question. So I told >> >> him >> >> where to go. A year later: No improvemnt. >> >> >> >> I conclude we have what Cool Hand Luke suggested is a failure to >> >> communicate. >> >> >> >> ------------- >> >> >> >> Now I have a question: I'm about to install the latest version of >> >> Debian. It will not be an upgrade. I'm not making that mistake >> >> again. >> >> >> >> The video in the machine in question is not what will be there >> >> down the >> >> track. At this point I don't even know what card it is - but its >> >> good >> >> enough for an install. Down the track I might put in two single >> >> monitor >> >> cards - likely old decrepid ones, or I might try a 5 head card. >> >> >> >> These all required TOTALLY different drivers. >> >> >> >> How hard is it to switch video systems? If a card dies and there >> >> is no >> >> spare how does one even get into a GUI to reconfigure a new card? >> >> >> >> I have NEVER liked GUI's for this simple reason. BUT - I believe >> >> it is >> >> feasible to write a system tool which can run in "EITHER" command >> >> prompt >> >> -or- GUI modes. Does anyone know if there is anything out there >> >> which >> >> acutally does something like this? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 03:55:43PM -0700, Mel Walters wrote: >> >> > Linux. Debian (Stable) >> >> > >> >> > For the intense hobbyist only? >> >> > Here is just a question: >> >> > How much truth is in the statement 'Installing and maintaining >> >> modern >> >> > Linux is a non issue for the potential user now. Lets move >> >> on.'? >> >> > >> >> > My recent experience was in helping a friend fix his upgrades >> >> after his >> >> > GUI upgrade gave an unhelpful error code he was unable to >> >> overcome. >> >> > The issues appeared to be authentication and the GUI hiding >> >> what was >> >> > going on in the background. Others prefer the command line and >> >> ncursers >> >> > like programs (aptitude) so they can see what is going on. With >> >> out my >> >> > intermittent help he would be unable use Linux a lot of the >> >> time. >> >> > Some of it is just computer user issues, but I'll bet that's >> >> not the >> >> > whole picture. >> >> > >> >> > Thoughts? >> >> > >> >> > Mel >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > clug-talk mailing list >> >> > clug-talk@clug.ca <mailto:clug-talk@clug.ca> >> >> > http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca >> >> > Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) >> >> > **Please remove these lines when replying >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> clug-talk mailing list >> >> clug-talk@clug.ca <mailto:clug-talk@clug.ca> >> >> http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca >> >> Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) >> >> **Please remove these lines when replying >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> clug-talk mailing list >> >> clug-talk@clug.ca >> >> http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca >> >> Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) >> >> **Please remove these lines when replying >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > clug-talk mailing list >> > clug-talk@clug.ca >> > http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca >> > Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) >> > **Please remove these lines when replying >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >clug-talk mailing list >clug-talk@clug.ca >http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca >Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) >**Please remove these lines when replying _______________________________________________ clug-talk mailing list clug-talk@clug.ca http://clug.ca/mailman/listinfo/clug-talk_clug.ca Mailing List Guidelines (http://clug.ca/ml_guidelines.php) **Please remove these lines when replying
