Petrus - Yes, one has to be careful with the precise question when using LLMs. However, the result of my question included "This passage is making a bold philosophical claim:" Fans of "Yes Minister" in the UK will recognise that describing something as bold is not necessarily a complement.
Ian - Regarding improvements in the apparatus I agree. It is other aspects Marin is questioning. For example, one of Marin's papers is refuting the Shannon Niquist sampling theorem though I can't find this particular paper (part 1 of this series) at the OSF. I probably would not be able to understand it anyway. I think he is saying that there is a fundamental measurement problem in the sampling theorem but not the same as the measurement problem in quantum mechanics. Abstract from another of his papers below. "The classical sampling theorem was refuted in part-1 of this series due to its circular proof: the proof is always true, whether the input signal is under-sampled or not. The symmetric-sampling theory of part-1, is here presented, while minimizing on the mathematics. The classical sampling theorem [Shannon 1949] is based on sampling deterministic signals and produces a finite number of measurements at specific sampling points. At each sampling point, however, the measurement must reach infinite precision. That creates a measurement problem in sampling theory, which is mirrored by an equally fundamental measurement problem in Quantum Mechanics and in all of Physics." In the meantime I am with Richard Feynman ""If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics" Colin From: Ian Tickle <[email protected]> Sent: 06 October 2025 18:06 To: Nave, Colin (DLSLtd,RAL,LSCI) <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Single Electron Counting, The Measurement Problem, Symmetric Sampling Sabine Hossenfelder (theoretical physicist at LMU, Munich: see her excellent series of videos on YouTube) argues that the measurement problem in QM is fundamentally different from the one in classical physics. In the latter it's about errors inherent in the measuring apparatus ("experimental errors"). In QM there's a fundamental limit on the precision of measurements (Heisenberg) that is inherent in all quantum systems and no amount of improvements in the apparatus is going to improve on that. Thus she concludes "In QM the measurement problem is not about measurement". -- Ian On Mon, 6 Oct 2025 at 17:26, Nave, Colin (DLSLtd,RAL,LSCI) <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Dear Marin, I cheated and asked a LLM view of what you were saying by feeding it the email, rather than the series of papers. Is this a fair representation.? Regards Colin Cryo-Electron Microscopy (Cryo-EM) is a technique for imaging biological molecules at near-atomic resolution. Electron counting cameras are advanced detectors that count individual electrons rather than measuring their cumulative energy. This leads to more precise imaging. The Measurement Problem in Quantum Mechanics The Measurement Problem refers to the puzzle of how and why quantum systems appear to "collapse" into a definite state when measured-despite being described by probabilistic wavefunctions before measurement. It's a central philosophical issue in quantum theory. Claim: Measurement Problem Is Not Unique to Quantum Mechanics The statement argues that the measurement problem isn't just a quantum issue-it already existed in classical physics. Here's how: * Classical Newtonian Physics is deterministic: given initial conditions, the future is fully predictable. * Yet, measurement in practice always involves uncertainty, noise, and sampling limitations. * This creates a tension: how can we reconcile perfect mathematical determinism with imperfect real-world measurements? Shannon's Sampling Theorem Connection Shannon's sampling theorem (from information theory) states that to perfectly reconstruct a signal, you must sample it at twice its highest frequency (the Nyquist rate). If you sample incorrectly, you get aliasing-distorted or misleading results. This implies: * Measurement is inherently tied to sampling rules. * If you violate these rules, you misrepresent reality-even in classical systems. Cryo-EM's Unexpected Link Electron counting cameras in Cryo-EM are measurement devices. The claim is that: * Their operation exposes fundamental limits of measurement-not just technical ones, but philosophical ones. * They highlight the need for symmetric sampling-meaning measurements must be taken in a way that respects the underlying structure of the system (e.g., time symmetry, spatial resolution). Summary Interpretation This passage is making a bold philosophical claim: * The measurement problem is universal-not just quantum. * It arises from the gap between mathematical models and physical reality. * Cryo-EM, through its precision and reliance on electron counting, reveals this gap in a tangible way. * All measurements-whether in physics, biology, or information theory-must obey sampling principles to avoid misrepresenting the system. From: CCP4 bulletin board <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Marin van Heel Sent: 04 October 2025 23:13 To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [ccp4bb] Single Electron Counting, The Measurement Problem, Symmetric Sampling You don't often get email from [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> Dear All, Electron counting cameras in Cryo-EM have an unexpected direct connection to the Measurement Problem in Quantum Mechanics. In fact, the measurement problem already existed in Classical Newtonian Physics due to its Deterministic Mathematical Axioms and is not specifically tied to Quantum Mechanics. The Measurement Problem also existed in Shannon's sampling theorem. All measurements, and not only those in Electron Microscopy must adhere to symmetric-sampling rules. Check the link to a series of papers: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7379515419424022528/ Sorry, I know it is tough stuff... Marin ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential, copyright and or privileged material, and are for the use of the intended addressee only. 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