https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-3783624/v1
On Mon, Oct 6, 2025 at 12:08 PM Nave, Colin (DLSLtd,RAL,LSCI) < [email protected]> wrote: > Petrus - Yes, one has to be careful with the precise question when using > LLMs. However, the result of my question included “This passage is making a > bold philosophical claim:” Fans of “Yes Minister” in the UK will recognise > that describing something as bold is not necessarily a complement. > > > > Ian - Regarding improvements in the apparatus I agree. It is other aspects > Marin is questioning. > > > > For example, one of Marin’s papers is refuting the Shannon Niquist > sampling theorem though I can’t find this particular paper (part 1 of this > series) at the OSF. I probably would not be able to understand it anyway. I > think he is saying that there is a fundamental measurement problem in the > sampling theorem but not the same as the measurement problem in quantum > mechanics. Abstract from another of his papers below. > > > > “The classical sampling theorem was refuted in part-1 of this series due > to its circular proof: the proof is always true, whether the input signal > is under-sampled or not. The symmetric-sampling theory of part-1, is here > presented, while minimizing on the mathematics. The classical sampling > theorem [Shannon 1949] is based on sampling deterministic signals and > produces a finite number of measurements at specific sampling points. At > each sampling point, however, the measurement must reach infinite > precision. That creates a measurement problem in sampling theory, which is > mirrored by an equally fundamental measurement problem in Quantum Mechanics > and in all of Physics.” > > > > In the meantime I am with Richard Feynman “"If you think you understand > quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics" > > > > Colin > > > > > > > > *From:* Ian Tickle <[email protected]> > *Sent:* 06 October 2025 18:06 > *To:* Nave, Colin (DLSLtd,RAL,LSCI) <[email protected]> > *Cc:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [ccp4bb] Single Electron Counting, The Measurement > Problem, Symmetric Sampling > > > > Sabine Hossenfelder (theoretical physicist at LMU, Munich: see her > excellent series of videos on YouTube) argues that the measurement problem > in QM is fundamentally different from the one in classical physics. In the > latter it's about errors inherent in the measuring apparatus ("experimental > errors"). In QM there's a fundamental limit on the precision of > measurements (Heisenberg) that is inherent in all quantum systems and no > amount of improvements in the apparatus is going to improve on that. Thus > she concludes "In QM the measurement problem is not about measurement". > > > > -- Ian > > > > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2025 at 17:26, Nave, Colin (DLSLtd,RAL,LSCI) < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Marin, > > I cheated and asked a LLM view of what you were saying by feeding it the > email, rather than the series of papers. Is this a fair representation.? > > Regards > > Colin > > *Cryo-Electron Microscopy (Cryo-EM)* is a technique for imaging > biological molecules at near-atomic resolution. Electron counting cameras > are advanced detectors that count individual electrons rather than > measuring their cumulative energy. This leads to more precise imaging. > > > > *The Measurement Problem in Quantum Mechanics* > > The Measurement Problem refers to the puzzle of how and why quantum > systems appear to "collapse" into a definite state when measured—despite > being described by probabilistic wavefunctions before measurement. It's a > central philosophical issue in quantum theory. > > > > *Claim: Measurement Problem Is Not Unique to Quantum Mechanics* > > The statement argues that the measurement problem isn't just a quantum > issue—it already existed in classical physics. Here's how: > > - Classical Newtonian Physics is deterministic: given initial > conditions, the future is fully predictable. > - Yet, measurement in practice always involves uncertainty, noise, and > sampling limitations. > - This creates a tension: how can we reconcile perfect mathematical > determinism with imperfect real-world measurements? > > > > *Shannon’s Sampling Theorem Connection* > > Shannon’s sampling theorem (from information theory) states that to > perfectly reconstruct a signal, you must sample it at twice its highest > frequency (the Nyquist rate). If you sample incorrectly, you get > aliasing—distorted or misleading results. > > This implies: > > - Measurement is inherently tied to sampling rules. > - If you violate these rules, you misrepresent reality—even in > classical systems. > > > > *Cryo-EM’s Unexpected Link* > > Electron counting cameras in Cryo-EM are measurement devices. The claim is > that: > > - Their operation exposes fundamental limits of measurement—not just > technical ones, but philosophical ones. > - They highlight the need for symmetric sampling—meaning measurements > must be taken in a way that respects the underlying structure of the system > (e.g., time symmetry, spatial resolution). > > > > *Summary Interpretation* > > This passage is making a bold philosophical claim: > > - The measurement problem is universal—not just quantum. > - It arises from the gap between mathematical models and physical > reality. > - Cryo-EM, through its precision and reliance on electron counting, > reveals this gap in a tangible way. > - All measurements—whether in physics, biology, or information > theory—must obey sampling principles to avoid misrepresenting the system. > > > > > > *From:* CCP4 bulletin board <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Marin > van Heel > *Sent:* 04 October 2025 23:13 > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* [ccp4bb] Single Electron Counting, The Measurement Problem, > Symmetric Sampling > > > > You don't often get email from > [email protected]. Learn why this is important > <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> > > > > Dear All, > > Electron counting cameras in Cryo-EM have an unexpected direct connection > to the Measurement Problem in Quantum Mechanics. In fact, the measurement > problem already existed in Classical Newtonian Physics due to its > Deterministic Mathematical Axioms and is not specifically tied to Quantum > Mechanics. The Measurement Problem also existed in Shannon’s sampling > theorem. All measurements, and not only those in Electron Microscopy must > adhere to symmetric-sampling rules. Check the link to a series of papers: > > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7379515419424022528/ > > Sorry, I know it is tough stuff… > > Marin > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 > > This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential, copyright and or > privileged material, and are for the use of the intended addressee only. If > you are not the intended addressee or an authorised recipient of the > addressee please notify us of receipt by returning the e-mail and do not > use, copy, retain, distribute or disclose the information in or attached to > the e-mail. Any opinions expressed within this e-mail are those of the > individual and not necessarily of Diamond Light Source Ltd. > Diamond Light Source Ltd. cannot guarantee that this e-mail or any > attachments are free from viruses and we cannot accept liability for any > damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses which may be > transmitted in or with the message. > Diamond Light Source Limited (company no. 4375679). Registered in England > and Wales with its registered office at Diamond House, Harwell Science and > Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire, OX11 0DE, United Kingdom. > > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 > > This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential, copyright and or > privileged material, and are for the use of the intended addressee only. If > you are not the intended addressee or an authorised recipient of the > addressee please notify us of receipt by returning the e-mail and do not > use, copy, retain, distribute or disclose the information in or attached to > the e-mail. Any opinions expressed within this e-mail are those of the > individual and not necessarily of Diamond Light Source Ltd. > Diamond Light Source Ltd. cannot guarantee that this e-mail or any > attachments are free from viruses and we cannot accept liability for any > damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses which may be > transmitted in or with the message. > Diamond Light Source Limited (company no. 4375679). Registered in England > and Wales with its registered office at Diamond House, Harwell Science and > Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire, OX11 0DE, United Kingdom. > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Peter Zwart Staff Scientist, Molecular Biophysics and Integrated Bioimaging Berkeley Synchrotron Infrared Structural Biology Biosciences Lead, Center for Advanced Mathematics for Energy Research Applications Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories 1 Cyclotron Road, Berkeley, CA-94703, USA Cell: 510 289 9246 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/CCP4BB, a mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/
