From: "Chad Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Michael Harney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 2:36 PM > >To: Killer Bs Discussion > >Subject: Re: L3: World cancer death rates have increased... > > > > > > > >From: "Chad Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >From: Kevin Tarr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 1:32 PM > >> >To: Killer Bs Discussion > >> >Subject: Re: L3: World cancer death rates have increased... > > > > >The cycle continues. Far earlier than expected. Apperantly I > >can never > >speek ill of eating meat, not even in regards to health... > >hell, never speek > >of food at all as it is always brought back to this discussion which > >invariably ends in flaming. I would point out the flaw in > >your logic, but > >what would be the point? Nobody listens, it just comes back > >to it again, > >and the cycle continues. > > I have already gone rounds with you on this, and really did not want to get > into it again (learned my lesson the first or second time). I honestly have > NOTHING against Vegetarianism. > > I, in fact, curbed my normal inclination to fight you on this. What started > my rant is the constant bashing of meat as a heathy, beneficial food item. > Because it involves the killing of amimals, extremist will attempt to cut > down meat scientifically, in order to indirectly provide some support to win > an ethical argument. I see a lot of generalizations, and I suppose I respond > back with a bunch of generalizations, in defense of meat. Its childish. My > real agenda is to stop people from using science as a bludgeon to support an > ethical position. The last time vegetarianism was discussed was in September of last year. It was Kevin that brought up the topic, not me. I had done no meat bashing or otherwise. The time before that it was well over 2 years ago IIRC. Please don't go into rant mode over percieved "constant" meat bashing. If you've got something against other vegetarians who give you a hard time, don't project that onto me. If people have failed to notice, I am very different than I was a half-decade ago. I'm tired of being equated to the neurotic, irrational, immature, and almost sociopathic person I was back then. It's part of the reason I left the list the last three times I did (each of those times saying I probably won't be coming back). I grow very weary of the constant reminder of who I was and lack of acknowledgement of who I am now. > Admit that you do feel self-rightous as a vegetarian. I think I would be as > well. You most likely benefit from it,as I probably would as well. This does > not mean that it is better. It does not mean that an onmivorious diet is > better. Science does not have a clear cut answer to this question, nor does > it help much in the getting to the ethical truth. Actually, no, I don't feel self-rightous as a vegetarian. In actuallity, I have a self-persecution complex, and no level of personal accomplishment, achievement, etc. is good enough for me. Even as a vegetarian I constantly feel guilty when I am just tempted to eat meat, hell, I feel guilty when I just smelling meat cooking. So, do I feel self-rightous? Hardly, I feel like a failure almost constantly. > If you feel threatened from me, it is I am attacking the meme that because I > eat meat, I am somewhat inferior, or lacking in common sense, dumb or all of > the above. You may be promoting this meme, and that is a question only you > can answer. Did I say meat eaters are inferior? No. In fact, I never even said that people shouldn't eat meat in the cancer posts. If anything, my posts on the cancer topic only suggest that one should reduce meat consumption if they are concerned about cancer, and even that would be distorting what I said (all I really said even remotely along those lines is that there is vegetarians are less likely to develop cancer than meat eaters... ask your family doctor if you don't believe me... the doctor will probably agree and caution that vegetarians, unless they are careful about their diet and take the right suppliments, they are more likely to develop anemia, B-12 defficiency, and other conditions. I won't argue with that, it's just a fact). I never stated in those posts that people should stop eating meat. > >If you genuinely want to discuss this topic, reply to this and > >say that you > >have a genuine desire to discuss the topic rationally and > >intelligently and > >I will. > > I don't think it can be done, in the same way science cannot tell us what > the best diet is (yet). If you want to discuss the ethical dilemma's this is > easier to do, and I am open to this. To start, it does bother me animals ar > killed to provide sausage for me in the morning. I still eat meat. Does that > make me a bad person? Intelligent and rational: The argument about the way vegetables are produced and the damages done in farming is faulty. The fault lies in the fact that the majority of the nations crops are used to feed livestock, so logically, agriculture is more damaging than it needs to be because of meat consumption. Another way that can be said is that not only are the feed animals killed, but also the rodents, insects, and other things that lived on the land that produces the food that the feed animals eat (all the things you and Kevin mentioned about the evils of vegetables). With regards to pesticides there is the principle of biomagnification. The level of toxins in an organism will be higher the higher up on the food-chain you go. Explaination: Cow eats 16 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef. For cumulative toxins like pesticides, the majority of the toxin will stay in the animal. Therefore, one pound of beef will have many times the ammount of pesticides in it than one pound of grain. As for allergies, a person can be allergic to many protiens, including some protiens that *other humans* produce! There are some stories that I have heard of people who lived with crippling asthma and allergies until they transitioned to a meatless diet. These stories are anecdotal and uncofirmed, but it is definately possible. Hell, one of my dogs is allergic to poultry. If I feed her even just a bit of turkey, eggs, or chicken her ears turn red and she starts scratching herself and biting herself all over. > But if this is just and attempt at justification (or worse, a > >deliberate attempt to troll me), your efforts are > >unneccessary/wasted on me > >now, so don't bother. > > Michael, we clearly lie in opposite poles politically, but I think we share > many common visions. This can cause conflict. I truly try to understand your > position, and feel bound to be critical, because I think it may broaden your > perspective on your position. This broadening can reflect back to me, allow > me to see that which I resist seeing. My personal beliefs fall all over the political spectrum, I just find some issues more important than others. Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much... the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons." - Douglas Adams _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
