Rawat, thanks for replying.. its good to have a genuine discussion. You claim zubeidaa songs could have been placed into pukaar, but I think that example is picked just to enforce your point. Look at the wider context. yes I agree zubeidaa, with some modifications, could be placed in other movies. It was a period movie, but the songs had general appeal with some modern day style. (yet it was one of the greatest albums to listen to). Now try claiming the same about Lagaan/zubeidaa or lagaan/pukaar, or imagine placing bose or Earth 1947 songs in other non period films. It wont work. Rising wont fit anywhere else, not even in other period movies.
> When the director of Gandhi made efforts to get a steam > driven engine and paid all expenses to roll it on the rails, > then the sounds of that era was needed to go with that train. > You can't show a steam engine of 1918 having the sounds and > whistle of an electric engine. I agree, but is ARR doing that? I don't see that analogy extending beyond the example you have given. I dont remember if that was part of any music or purely sound fx of the movie. Surely if needed ARR does synthesize sounds of real situations. Train whistle, water dripping, and even synth instruments that sound olden and unique. If he used purely situational instruments, singers with voices of that era, type of tunes of that era, sounds without technological cleanup, then, despite a good tune, once agian people would claim disappointment due to lack of innovation.. people will get bored. I guess the argument then is whether ARR's music should be genuine of that era or portray the ambience of that era using modern sounds. I personally think the latter is more difficult than the former, and I wouldn't mind either. So, certainly I am not going to call it any bit of disappointment because ARR chooses a more innovative option. Umrao Jaan was great, but not innovative. (my personal opinion, no fights please) > And, five minutes later comes the sounds of dhoomparani > which is also a lorii lullaby song like the above one. A > brilliant, lovely song, but it was a 2005 sound, not 1941's. When I hear ghoomparani I think of an era in the past, with an innocent girl of the past singing that song. Again, this one portray itself as being genuinely of the past, yet it suits the purpose.. and I doubt any song created with an effort to be genuinely of the past would suit more appropriately.. I doubt it would hold our attention for years to come? > However, ARR's most of the period albums fail on this count. > They did not have the feel of "older" times. They did. Just a different kind of feeling. One that is more subtle, one that builds an ambience of the situation. E.g. from zubeidaa.. "mein gumsum jo gaati javu piya, piya piya (then flute..)" There is some form of ARR magic in it because I can not explain it rationally. It is a Godly talent to articulate complex emotions. That line I just mentioned - it has a unique feel that fits so well in that movie. It portrays the level of innocence and delicacy in the girl that we could not expect today's women to carry (lol..) Followed by the flute tune which also somehow just doesn't fit a modern day scenario. ARR's music is a lot more intricate than work of most other Artists. I sincerely dont believe majority of the public, including the critics understand that. > Just six years ago, people loved ARR's Taal and Dil Se like > no other album was loved ever before. > Just four years ago, people loved ARR's Lagaan and showered > him with praises and awards. Yes, people loved Roja, Rangeela, Taal, Dil se, Lagaan. At the same time, the same people also didnt love as much many other great pieces of work of ARR. Sapnay, Vishwa Vidhata, and recently even Swades. So, we agree on this much. > I mean: People are always ready to like ARR's music. > That means: people could understand ARR's music then. > So, how come the same people are not giving much weight age > to ARR's recent releases? Is there a sudden conspiracy > against ARR. This is where we go different directions.. Let me pose this question. Why is it that many albums which are mega hits in the South fail in the North, and vice versa? It is not simply the matter of new lyrics in a different language. It is a matter of different types of crowd.. difference in musical culture. What I'm trying to get at is that there are different interpretations of musical art. Like with branches of science, there is an inherent ability in a person to think creatively and come up with new concepts, that is the ability of a good music composer. (while science reasons logically, music reasons artistically.. logical rational in science is replaced with our brain's ability to infer notes in an emotional way). Like with science, different people have different abilities to infer these concepts (musical notes). That clearly does not mean that majority is right. Actually, if anything science has taught us it is that natural abilities come in a normal distribution (for those that don't know think of a bell curve) So, statically we can reason that there will be fewer people who can appreciate more than the surface. (of ARR's music) To me, this is the main distinction why people praise some of his albums and not other songs that deserve at least that much credit. > My answer is "NO". There is no consiracy. No, there is no conspiracy. I'm sure people would love to hear a great number by ARR and admit that it is. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that ARR has the talent, people are only disappointed with the expected output that they infer from it. > ARR seems to have > not been coming with the music that people will love like > Taal, Dil Se and Lagaan. Majority of people in this forums will be happy to contest that. It is a matter of interpretation. You notice many people in this group have started edifying proper ways to listen to ARR's songs. It may seem inappropriate of them to, but there is a good reason to it. Many of ARR's numbers are extremely intricate and subtle. You may have to dismantle it instrument by instrument, note by note. The genius in melody can only be felt when your brain is familiar enough to interpret it correctly. Additionally, there may be a spiritual factor to all of ARR's work that takes time to build up.. most noticeably in his qawwali type numbers. So, unless examined appropriately many of arr's genius can go unfelt. Hence people's disappointment. Dig beyond the surface and the treasure is immeasurable. Other songs - Dil Se, Taal - were easier to interpret. The appeal was in its appearance on the surface. They were also intricate and many people may not have discovered the depth of it, but even at the surface they were appreciated. > You must have been loving to listen to the critics in the > days of Taal and Lagaan. :) Don't say "no". > But you have stopped listening to critics only after critics > started writing unpleasant things about ARR's music. I was extremely happy that people appreciated Dil Se, Taal, Laagan. But that was not because of what the critics said in particular, it was the whole crowd. Its not like saying I choose to listen to critics when they admit positive comments. There was a point in the past when I realized most critics don't appreciate music in the same manner that I do, hence their opinion was irrelevant to me. Who are they anyway? Music artists who couldnt make it? or simply music lovers who can write a few words. And what makes them so appropriate for that job and not another person? They are just normal people with an opinion. Their view should not be extended beyond it being solely their own. No doubt there might be a person out there who understands ARR's music to a greater depth, but I have not found that critic yet. The most appropriate critic who have the right to criticize ARR's work would be his crew!! The people who work with him. people who have the talent to create as well as understand it. > The loss might be of such people, but sooner than later, it > will start reflecting in returns on ARR's films. > If masses do not like ARR's music, producers/ directors will > stop engaging him as MD in their films, and we will not get > any ARR music to listen to. That has not happened despite many recent albums not being a hit, he is still the most pursued by both north and south directors. He has proved his talent, his fans will never fade. There will always be a significant market for his work. And not just that, now that he has reached beyond India, demand for his work is only growing. I dont think he "needs" to do any Hindi album, he can make more than enough living for himself and his crew from Tamil and international projects, yet he does this. He is a true patriot. A humble human being. And it clearly reflects in his work. I hope you didnt take me as being a baseless fanatic. I am a fan of his God given heavenly talent, and I judge every album from scratch. -S An ardent fan of ARR. --- In [email protected], V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/21/05 10:17 AM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > > > Rawat, > > > > If anyone knows slightest bit of history about Mangal Pandey he would > > know the situation and plot to be expected. Okay, so by listening to > > Rising you can't validate whether it is entirely appropriate. Then you > > might want to revisit Bose, bhagat singh, laagan etc. > > > > He doesnt have to use instruments of that era to create the "mood" > > demanded by the situation. Surely no MD in his right mind today would > > go back and use technology of 1857 to come up with a score for the movie!! > > When the director of Gandhi made efforts to get a steam > driven engine and paid all expenses to roll it on the rails, > then the sounds of that era was needed to go with that train. > > You can't show a steam engine of 1918 having the sounds and > whistle of an electric engine. > --------- > > Those who had seen bose, might have noticed that a song in > the voice of K L Saigal played at one or two places in the > beginning. It was "so jaa raajkumaarii so jaa". > > That was a 1940-1941 movie/ song. People expect to hear that > type of sound in the realistic depiction of the Bose's life > in 1941. That is why the director took pains to find out a > song of that duration shown as being played on an antic radio. > > And, five minutes later comes the sounds of dhoomparani > which is also a lorii lullaby song like the above one. A > brilliant, lovely song, but it was a 2005 sound, not 1941's. > > So, ARR's brilliance is becoming like a steam engine giving > electic whistle. It is out of place. > > > Quite contrary to that ARR used more hi-tech effects in Rising. And it > > is because of his genius that he can do that and still bring about the > > emotions demanded by the director. It could consider multitude of > > factors such as culture, locality, era, and most importantly the > > placement of the song in the storyline. > > I had already written that in Rising music, I feel that ARR > has given maximum "old" feel compared to all "period" sounds > of ARR. > > Khayyam's umrao Jaan is also set in the duration of 1857. In > fact there are references of the mutiny and britishers > annexing Avadh where the film was based. Khayyaam also used > latest things of 1981, but he took care to give a feel of > those times, like ARR took care to give the feel of old > times in the Rising. > > However, ARR's most of the period albums fail on this count. > They did not have the feel of "older" times. > > You could not have taken Umrao Jaan song and fitted them in > Kabhii Kabhii. But you could have taken zubaidaa songs and > fitted them in Pukar, or in Lakeer which were contemporary > movies. You could have taken "hum hain is pal yahaa.N" and > put it in K3G or Kal ho na ho. > > > I stopped listening to critics long time ago - I listen to ARR. > > > > If people can not admit the brilliance of Rahman, it is only because > > they can not understand it! > > I totally differ with that. > > Just six years ago, people loved ARR's Taal and Dil Se like > no other album was loved ever before. > > Just four years ago, people loved ARR's Lagaan and showered > him with praises and awards. > > I mean: People are always ready to like ARR's music. > > That means: people could understand ARR's music then. > > So, how come the same people are not giving much weightage > to ARR's recent releases? Is there a sudden conspiracy > against ARR. > > My answer is "NO". There is no consiracy. ARR seems to have > not been coming with the music that people will love like > Taal, Dil Se and Lagaan. > > It does not mean that ARR had compromised in these three > films. Thus, ARR need not compromise in his future films. he > can still come up with his unique music that enthralls people. > > ------------- > You must have been loving to listen to the critics in the > days of Taal and Lagaan. :) Don't say "no". > > But you have stopped listening to critics only after critics > started writing unpleasant things about ARR's music. > > > > > Either way, its their loss, not ours :) > > The loss might be of such people, but sooner than later, it > will start reflecting in returns on ARR's films. > > If masses do not like ARR's music, producers/ directors will > stop engaging him as MD in their films, and we will not get > any ARR music to listen to. > > > > > -S > > -- > Rawat This August, Discover the Birth of Your Independence and The Magic of A.R.Rahman's Music in Mangal Pandey - The Rising http://www.risingthefilm.com http://www.mangalpandeythefilm.com Music released: Jul 14, 2005 Movie releases: Aug 12, 2005 Explore, Experience, Enjoy A.R.Rahman - The Man, The Music, The Magic. 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