I'll try to make this short, but lets see how it goes.. When I said you picked zubeidaa songs to make your point I agreed that zubeidaa songs cont carry hard traits of the time ans can be replaced into others. Whereas laagaan, bose, rising are more irreplaceable. Partly because of the lyrics and accounts of history ingrained into the song, but partly also because of its sounds.
> Aren't other replacement possible from pukar to 1947 earth, zubaida, lagaan Yes some will be possible, many not possible. Waltz of romance.. possible in other situations demanding waltz in an british presence, but clearly not otherwise.. so couldnt have been placed even in bose, or 1947 unless the director made changes to his view. And that is an unfair comparison. Chale chalo. sure could have replaced kadam karam badhae ja. Whereas the contrary is not a good choice because kadam kadam was a unique theme of Subhash's army. Still does that mean chale chalo is not unique to lagaan. It conveys every possible concept it needs to. The anger toward british rule, persevierence to beat the opponent, confronting in together in a team etc etc. It just so happens that Bose and lagaan had situations very similar and the song could be replaced. But that wont go into pukaar or swades. Oo palanhare and ek tuu hii bharosaa, sure. Context is pretty much the same. I dont know how much periodness comes into play when one is worshiping. I guess the period element in palan hare comes from the lytics e.g "bhakti ko shakdi do". "bhagvaan yeh jeevan, tumhe na savaro ke.." What I find amazing here is how well the melody fits those lyrics. So indirectly it does contain period elements doesnt it. Megha song.. no way wont replace anything! Mahive Mahive from LOBS.. with some modification could be placed in other period/non period situations. But not as it is, the tabla beats in the background are too reminiscent of the olden era. Ofcourse they probably dont resemble anythign of that time, it just creates that feeling. IM sure there are more examples.. just trying to make this one short. Yesterday I downloaded mughal-e-azam songs as I hadnt heard them in a loooong time. Naushad has a great talent, ARR possibly has some resemblance of naushad's style of composing tunes out of notes. (I didnt say melody ). After listening to them few times I'm of the view that, to me, Mughal-e-Azam wont last for more than couple of hearings. It is just not attractive for this era. Should ARR compose anything of that (even with modern day reccording technology) it wont last even as long as what he actually releases. Do you tell me Mughal-e-Azam does not have traits of 1960?? ( which is when it was released I think) I dont know 1960s music well, but that what it appears to me as initially. > Eventually, the "modern day style" feel of these songs prevails over "period" feel of these songs. to me, over the time, the songs get ingrained into the movie. When I hear lagaan songs it will remind me of scenes from the movie, or give me some other feel that I had attatched most to that tune, but doesnt replace with modern day style feel. I'll concede from your examples that many songs of these films can be interchanged. But to me that does not put the songs out of place for the situation demanded, or the situation it arouses through my imagination! > Frankly, nobody knows or cares what sounds were used in > mughal era, but the past musicians have set a trend by using > those heavy instruments to denote the feel of that era. Now > people recognize those sounds to be the sounds of mughal > era. Agree. > If ARR changes those sounds to push some new sounds, > people might not digest it, and music and film will flop. Not. Lagaan songs did not flop. Earth 1947 did not flop (atleast among the audience I know of) > That is the first "misfit" aspect of the music. How do you know the director is not to be blamed for that? Do you really think any music director in his right mind would palce a voice of a little kid for a 30 something old lady? Sounds like miscommunicaiton of scenario from director to ARR. > but he agains comes us with songs like "dhaka lagaa bukaa" > and "shazaade nikale" which make peole remind of earlier > days and they switch their minds off from ARR. Agree. You're reading my mind too. How can you say the blame is not on people?? >But when ARR could manage to win the hearts of hindi crowd > with Rangeela, and later taal, now he has no locus standi in > saying that he could not understand hindi listeners. I'm sure he understands. The differene is not in musical culture of AR, i was talking about the audience. Sure some hit tamil film songs have been a success in the north, and many have not! If the demographics were the same most albums that were a hit in the south would be a hit in the north and vice versa, but the deviation is too large. He can give the audience another taal or dil se or rangeela. But thats not himi, he doesnt repeat themes. He keeps experimenting and inventing.. I guess thats his passion. If people oppose that because they dont understant the depth of his work then, to me, it clearly is people's fault not the composer. Sure if it were a plain business of selling (where the aim is solely to make more money) then one would want to create the product as simple as possible so that majority of the users can manage to deal with it. Thats not the same in this case. Music has spiritual and emotional aspect to it, it is a creative art not just a business. I agree with your theory abotu public not carrying hi-fi systems necessary to see the real deal behind AR's sounds. But I dont think that is entirely to blame. Actually, I thought most people in india had upgraded to somethign reasonable sounding.. but I may be out of touch. And you tell me the critics who write these reviews dont have hi-fi systems either??? Actualyl there are ample people who do have appropriate means to listen to his sounds yet dont end up understanding to its depth. There are people like that in india and there are indian people like that outside of india. I dont think AR shoudl compromise his style, his genius, and his passion to suit the bulk of the crowd. He has been a musical revolutionary since Roja, and he should stay that way. On some occaison it ends up being attractive on the surface too, and people cheer that. No one can please everyone! Not even God! If he chose to adopt a style that pelases one crowd, he would lose out on another. It is best that he stick to what is natural to him, to me thats where his brilliance lies. He does not need to please the bulk of the crowd to be called a genius. For a true music lover it is their own responsibility to explore it to a depth so that they can appreciate the work of art. Otherwise it would plainly be a matter of difference in 'tastes' of genres, which is far more acceptable than the crude judgement of the crowd, who are satisfied with this genre but hail some of his great works as disappointing! To me, they are the ones that disappointed ARR. Luckily he has fans like us. His current fans are his prime target, + millions more. They will never fade. one reason mughl-e-azam doe not appeal to me is that I am beyond that generation who can. ARR's work will be appreciated by generations to come. I cant predict the future but I would say many of his songs will remain attractive for a century, and some even become eternal like works of Mozart. Just to clear out my point, consider religion, God, worship.. Those of a given religion who wish to go to heaven and have eternal peace work all their life being an ideal being. Worshiping everyday, remembring God, staying out of sinful acts. Why do people not believe that remaining pure on the surface would still allow one to pass through to heaven. Why not worship just once in the life when needed, rather than making that extra effort to be religiously pure throughout the entire life. Since music is an emotional expericne, I used this example of spiritual worship. They both give ones self some sort of internal satisfaction. Ofcourse where the analogy falters is that religious indoctrinates have been passed on over the generation. But as modern society evolves people are relying more on their own judgements. So my point still holds. Why should people just expect the best on the surface?.Those that go that extra mile are still great fans of ARR, those that dont, just arent. The blame is on the people. --- In [email protected], V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/22/05 9:55 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > > > Rawat, thanks for replying.. its good to have a genuine discussion. > > > > You claim zubeidaa songs could have been placed into pukaar, but I > > think that example is picked just to enforce your point. > > The following is the list of zubaidaa songs. I feel that any > of the above could have been in pukaar album instead of > Zubaidaa. I was talking about the album and not the film, > but let me now give the situations in pukar as well. > > - dhiime.n\-dhiime.n gaa_uu.N - > Madhuri sings the above song in pukar in the beginning. > > - duur kahii.n ik aam kii bagiyaa ... pyaaraa saa gaa.Nv > In jail, Anil Kapoor recalls his mother sining the above > song to him in his childhood. > > - mahakii\-mahakii hai.n raahe.n ... hai.n naa > let it replace "sunta hai mera khuda" > > - meha.ndii hai rachanevaalii > Namrata shirodkar sings the above song thinking about her > marriage with anil kapoor > > - ra.ngiilii ho ... mai.n alabelii > madhuri sings the above song in some hotel performance > > - sayyaa.N chho.Do morii bayyaa.N sayyaa.N > namrata sings it anywhere > > - so gaye hai.n kho gaye hai.n dil ke afasaane > madhuri sings this song when she comes to know that Anil is > in love with Namrata > > Could you please enumerate which song(s) listed above would > sound out of place among pukaar songs? > > List of Pukar songs: (supposed be 2000 era) > > - aa jaa_o kii sab mil ke ... ek tuu hii bharosaa > - haay jaanaa.N > - naujavaano baat maano ... he ke saraa saraa saraa > - phir chalane vaale ... hamaraahii jab ho mastaanaa > - qismat se tum hamako mile ho kaise chho.De.Nge > - sunataa hai meraa Kudaa > > Considering the opposite, I now concede that "haay jaanaa" > and "sunta hai mera khuda" of Pukar can't be put in 1947 > earth, zubaida, lagaan. > > - "kay sara sara" could NOT be put in lagaan, but can go > well with zubaidaa and 1947 earth. > > Aren't other replacement possible from pukar to 1947 earth, > zubaida, lagaan > > - "ek tuu hii bharosaa" replaces "palanhare" even in film. > > - "kay sara sara" is sung by Manoj bajpai and Karisma on > their first meet in the hotel. > > - "hamarahi jab ho mastaanaa" replaces "hai naa" even in film. > > - "qismat se tum hamako mile ho" replaces "o rii chhorii". > > so on. > > > Look at the wider context. yes I agree zubeidaa, with some > > modifications, could be placed in other movies. It was a period movie, > > but the songs had general appeal with some modern day style. > > that is the whole point. Eventually, the "modern day style" > feel of these songs prevails over "period" feel of these > songs. Due to this very reason, critics and listeners have > just stopped giving any weightage to MD's claim of > "period"-ness of songs. > > > (yet it > > was one of the greatest albums to listen to). Now try claiming the > > same about Lagaan/zubeidaa or lagaan/pukaar, or imagine placing bose > > or Earth 1947 songs in other non period films. It wont work. Rising > > wont fit anywhere else, not even in other period movies. > > List of 1947 Earth songs (supposed to be 1947-ish) > > - banno raanii tumhe siyaanii honaa hii thaa > - dhiimii dhiimii bhiinii bhiinii > - iishvar allah tere jahaa.N me.n > - raat kii daladal hai gaa.Dhii re gaa.Dhii re > - rut aa ga_ii re rut chhaa ga_ii re > - ye jo zi.ndagii hai > > I do think that most of the above songs can be put in other > albums, of course not in outright modern albums like duniyaa > dilawaalon kii, etc. > > in fact, I feel "ye jo zi.ndagii hai", the song that I > consider the best single song of ARR, is having such a > modern, even a futuristic feel to it that it was totally out > of place among dhiimii dhiimii, raat kii daldal, ishwar > allaah of this film. > > >>When the director of Gandhi made efforts to get a steam > >>driven engine and paid all expenses to roll it on the rails, > >>then the sounds of that era was needed to go with that train. > > > > > >>You can't show a steam engine of 1918 having the sounds and > >>whistle of an electric engine. > > > > > > I agree, but is ARR doing that? I don't see that analogy extending > > beyond the example you have given. I dont remember if that was part of > > any music or purely sound fx of the movie. Surely if needed ARR does > > synthesize sounds of real situations. Train whistle, water dripping, > > and even synth instruments that sound olden and unique. > > The example was just to highlight the "out-of-place" thing. > > ARR had already given several versions of janganman but he > had to find yet another version for janganman in Bose (the > snippet that was not in cassette/cd). > > ARR had already given some versions of vandemataram, but > none of that can be put in bhagat singh or bose. > > Doing so would have created using electric engine whistle to > a steam engine. > > Similarly, ARR's period songs are not trying enough to sound > like a real steam engine, and that is what people object to. > > > If he used > > purely situational instruments, singers with voices of that era, type > > of tunes of that era, sounds without technological cleanup, then, > > despite a good tune, once agian people would claim disappointment due > > to lack of innovation.. people will get bored. > > :) enough people seems to have got enough bored with Mangal > Pandey anyway. :) > > sorry. could not help it. > ------ > > When the colored mughal-e-azam was released, its music was > also touched up and new version was released having same old > songs but processed with latest technology. > > Anyone who had listened to old songs would have instantly > felt the difference. voices sounded more shrill in new > version, there was noticeable echo effect in new version, etc. > > thus, I concede that the latest techonolgy does affect the > music. If the same songs of mughal-e-azam were to be > recorded with the same tunes and even using the same > intruments, the effect would have got changed drastically. > > But, even then there is this era-feel of the sounds. If ARR > is doing akbar-jodha, will he use the type of music used by > naushad in mughal-e-azam, or will he use lagaan, 1947 earth, > zubaida, mangal pandey music. > > Frankly, nobody knows or cares what sounds were used in > mughal era, but the past musicians have set a trend by using > those heavy instruments to denote the feel of that era. Now > people recognize those sounds to be the sounds of mughal > era. If ARR changes those sounds to push some new sounds, > people might not digest it, and music and film will flop. > > My humble advice to ARR could be that he should take > majority of the sounds established as the signature sounds > of a era and then slightly improvise on them just to leave > his own minimal signatures. > > Bidding farewell to period film might be disasterour to > ARR's career. There is no end to it. He will have to say > that lakeer flopped hence will not do modern film, and so > on. Nothing will be left. > > He should try to find out what went wrong and then correct it. > > > I guess the argument then is whether ARR's music should be genuine of > > that era or portray the ambience of that era using modern sounds. > > I personally think the latter is more difficult than the former, and I > > wouldn't mind either. So, certainly I am not going to call it any > > bit > > of disappointment because ARR chooses a more innovative option. > > > > Umrao Jaan was great, but not innovative. (my personal opinion, no > > fights please) > > but umrao jaan music managed to get all critical and popular > acclaim and fetched all prizes. > > What more can ARR want? > > > When I hear ghoomparani I think of an era in the past, with an > > innocent girl of the past singing that song. > > haa haa haa. > > That is the first "misfit" aspect of the music. > > ARR's choice of a 14 year old girl's voice did not fit on a > 30 - 35 year old lady, mother of many, singing the song for > his son. > > Can Shyam Benegal now be excused for not using the full song > in the film, because of this reason. It would not have > fitted with visuals. > > > Again, this one portray > > itself as being genuinely of the past, yet it suits the purpose.. and > > I doubt any song created with an effort to be genuinely of the past > > would suit more appropriately.. I doubt it would hold our attention > > for years to come? > > What difference was among "chupke se" of saathiyaa and > "ghoomparani" of bose? then, how come one was 2003 thing and > other was tauted as 1941 thing. Actually the mother would > have sung the song first when bose (born 1897) was much > younger, so the song should have a 1900 feel to it. > > > They did. Just a different kind of feeling. One that is more subtle, > > one that builds an ambience of the situation. E.g. from zubeidaa.. > > "mein gumsum jo gaati javu piya, piya piya (then flute..)" There is > > some form of ARR magic in it because I can not explain it rationally. > > magic is indeed there. nobody can contest that the music was > anything but great. I am only contesting that the music was > not period. > > > It is a Godly talent to articulate complex emotions. That line I just > > mentioned - it has a unique feel that fits so well in that movie. It > > portrays the level of innocence and delicacy in the girl that we could > > not expect today's women to carry (lol..) Followed by the flute tune > > which also somehow just doesn't fit a modern day scenario. > > exchange "chupke se" of sathiya and "dheeme dheeme gaao.n". > it will fit. > > > ARR's music is a lot more intricate than work of most other Artists. I > > sincerely dont believe majority of the public, including the critics > > understand that. > > Why? > > Why people do not bother to give credence to ARR? > > I think it was ARR's own doing in using those stupid lyrics > in his initial days in "jurassic park me.n sundar se jode > jaaz music gaaye.n" and "latakaa jhatakaa". > > Listening to those songs, several people could not associate > with them, and had mentally written ARR off. now they are > not ready to give arr second chance. > > coming to think of it, those who have heard bappi lahiri > would know that he had given several good songs also. But he > got stamped as a particular type of md, and he could never > come up from that. Anu got marked as thief and he could > never come up from that. > > Similarly, ARR can't wish away his earlier mistakes. He must > suffer the effect of these, yet he must keep on putting good > effort and some day people will sure love him again. didn't > people love dil se and taal wholeheartedly? > > but he agains comes us with songs like "dhaka lagaa bukaa" > and "shazaade nikale" which make peole remind of earlier > days and they switch their minds off from ARR. > > On the other hand, did you find any single person who said > any single wrong thing about swades music. > > So blame it not on people. there are enough proofs that > people are willing to give ARR try after try. > > > Yes, people loved Roja, Rangeela, Taal, Dil se, Lagaan. > > At the same time, the same people also didnt love as much many other > > great pieces of work of ARR. Sapnay, Vishwa Vidhata, and recently even > > Swades. > > > > So, we agree on this much. > > I would say that nobody disliked sapne and swades. > vishwavidhata did not become popular on account of the film > not finding much taker. I like its "kal nahii.n thaa wo kyaa > hai" as one of the sweatest song arr had made. > > The way swades music fitted the mood of the film, I would > say that few other albums of arr had fitted. ARR should work > more on same concept. > > > This is where we go different directions.. > > Let me pose this question. Why is it that many albums which are mega > > hits in the South fail in the North, and vice versa? > > I am a north-indian (lucknow, indore), I don't know a word > of tamil, nor do I get tamil albums to hear here. > > I don't know which hindi albums of arr are hindi original, > or which albums are dubbed from tamil or other south indian > language. > > Similarly, hardly many hindi speakers are aware of tamil > music. thus, I can say that the history of tamil music does > not affect north-indians' judgment about a hindi released. > We just don't know any tamil history of tamil song/ album. > > Roja, bombay were dubbed from tamil and they did become > quite hit in hindi also. > > > It is not simply the matter of new lyrics in a different language. It > > is a matter of different types of crowd.. difference in musical > > culture. > > ha ha ha. > > But when ARR could manage to win the hearts of hindi crowd > with Rangeela, and later taal, now he has no locus standi in > saying that he could not understand hindi listeners. He > already knows everything that a hindi listener wants. Only > that he is not giving them that. > > > What I'm trying to get at is that there are different interpretations > > of musical art. Like with branches of science, there is an inherent > > ability in a person to think creatively and come up with new concepts, > > that is the ability of a good music composer. (while science reasons > > logically, music reasons artistically.. logical rational in science is > > replaced with our brain's ability to infer notes in an emotional way). > > Like with science, different people have different abilities to infer > > these concepts (musical notes). That clearly does not mean that > > majority is right. Actually, if anything science has taught us it is > > that natural abilities come in a normal distribution (for those that > > don't know think of a bell curve) So, statically we can reason > > that > > there will be fewer people who can appreciate more than the surface. > > (of ARR's music) > > > > To me, this is the main distinction why people praise some of his > > albums and not other songs that deserve at least that much credit. > > Now let me mention one more of my theory. > > ARR's music is best heard on hi-fi systems. Most of the > public are not having those costly systems that members of > this group are having. > > Most people don't buy audio cd like members of this group. > > Thus, it is natural that the most people, even those who buy > arr's cassette and listen to it on BPL single speaker two in > one cassette recorder costing 990 rs., are not able to > listen to arr's real magic. > > Who is to blame for it? ARR himself, I would say. why do > naddem shrawan's simplistic music becomes popular? because > he puts enough elements which will reach the ear and mind of > a cassette buyer on a BPL single speaker two in one cassette > recorder. > > Thus, ARR's high tech effects do not reach anyone except > some 1000 people of this group. That is why you people > praise ARR, and that is why others are not able to > understand why you guys praise an album that sounds so > mediocre on their system. > > So many people memebers of this group give suggestion to > hear arr in audio cd putting headpone or 5+1 speaker with > surround sound, amplier on a sony or akai or boss. > > Excuse me. majority of indians have not touched, not seen, > not heard of all these things. they can't afford it. > > I suggest that we members should donate 1 rs each and buy > that BPL single-speaker two-in-one cassette recorder costing > 990 rs., and gift it to ARR. Before giving his music to his > producer/ director, ARR can record that on a 20 rs cassette > and listen on this system to know how much of his hi tech > effects will eventually reach millions of indians. ARR will > get enough insights by this simple exercise. > > > You notice many people in this group have started edifying proper ways > > to listen to ARR's songs. It may seem inappropriate of them to, but > > there is a good reason to it. Many of ARR's numbers are extremely > > intricate and subtle. You may have to dismantle it instrument by > > instrument, note by note. The genius in melody can only be felt when > > your brain is familiar enough to interpret it correctly. Additionally, > > there may be a spiritual factor to all of ARR's work that takes > > time > > to build up.. most noticeably in his qawwali type numbers. > > > > So, unless examined appropriately many of arr's genius can go unfelt. > > Hence people's disappointment. Dig beyond the surface and the treasure > > is immeasurable. > > Exactly. seems you have already independentally found what I > wrote about BPL music system. > > The point is: people can't afford hi-end systems. The only > way for ARR is to give enough elements in his music so that > the music appear lovely enough on low-end systems. > > > Other songs - Dil Se, Taal - were easier to interpret. The appeal was > > in its appearance on the surface. They were also intricate and many > > people may not have discovered the depth of it, but even at the > > surface they were appreciated. > > Sahil, you are speaking things reading my mind. It is a > magic. It is a synergy. > > That is the crux outcome of a sincere discussion. > > > > > I was extremely happy that people appreciated Dil Se, Taal, Laagan. > > But that was not because of what the critics said in particular, it > > was the whole crowd. Its not like saying I choose to listen to critics > > when they admit positive comments. There was a point in the past when > > I realized most critics don't appreciate music in the same manner that > > I do, hence their opinion was irrelevant to me. > > Who are they anyway? Music artists who couldnt make it? or simply > > music lovers who can write a few words. And what makes them so > > appropriate for that job and not another person? > > > > They are just normal people with an opinion. Their view should not be > > extended beyond it being solely their own. No doubt there might be a > > person out there who understands ARR's music to a greater depth, but I > > have not found that critic yet. > > > > The most appropriate critic who have the right to criticize ARR's work > > would be his crew!! The people who work with him. people who have the > > talent to create as well as understand it. > > > > > > That has not happened despite many recent albums not being a hit, he > > is still the most pursued by both north and south directors. > > And ARR's saying no to period album would be a step in wrong > direction because he will be forcing his decision on such > people who stood by him in thick or thin. > > > He has proved his talent, his fans will never fade. There will always > > be a significant market for his work. > > > > And not just that, now that he has reached beyond India, demand for > > his work is only growing. > > yeah. foreigners are well to do and are having good system > in which arr's music's intricacies reach them, thus they > love arr's music. > > > I dont think he "needs" to do any Hindi album, he can make more than > > enough living for himself and his crew from Tamil and international > > projects, yet he does this. > > > > He is a true patriot. A humble human being. And it clearly reflects in > > his work. > > I think ARR needs to be more open and interactive with his > fans and critics. He should personally write in this group > and other forums, That way he would get enough feedback and > views and suggestions of people who listen to his music. It > will help him improve. > > > > > I hope you didnt take me as being a baseless fanatic. I am a fan of > > his God given heavenly talent, and I judge every album from scratch. > > Same with me. > > > > > > > -S > > I loved it all. Thanks for this. > > -- > Rawat This August, Discover the Birth of Your Independence and The Magic of A.R.Rahman's Music in Mangal Pandey - The Rising http://www.risingthefilm.com http://www.mangalpandeythefilm.com Music released: Jul 14, 2005 Movie releases: Aug 12, 2005 Explore, Experience, Enjoy A.R.Rahman - The Man, The Music, The Magic. Only at arrahmanfans - The definitive A.R.Rahman e-community. Homepage: http://www.arrahmanfans.com Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arrahmanfans/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
