--- In [email protected], V S Rawat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 7/23/05 11:34 PM India Time, _ST_ wrote: > > Whereas laagaan, bose, rising are more irreplaceable. Partly because > of the lyrics and accounts of history ingrained into the song, but > partly also because of its sounds.
=======Rawat======= let's see. - Bose's "tanhaa raahii apanii raah chalataa jaayegaa" (with or without bengali prelogue) can be put in PUKAR creating a situation that Anil Kapoor reaffirms his own faith in his honesty and patriotism and sings it in jail. =======Rawat======= ------------------- By the same token, Naushad could have easily used Pyar kiya to darna kyaa in Pakeezah. Mohe Pangat pe could have been easily placed Satyam Shivam Sundaram (I hvae to pick a diff directors movie bcoz Naushad by himself did so few films and was way too choosy than what ARR is) If you think loud voices defined Mughal period ------------------- > Yes some will be possible, many not possible. > Waltz of romance.. possible in other situations demanding waltz in an > british presence, but clearly not otherwise.. so couldnt have been > placed even in bose, or 1947 unless the director made changes to his > view. And that is an unfair comparison. > > Chale chalo. sure could have replaced kadam karam badhae ja. Whereas > the contrary is not a good choice because kadam kadam was a unique > theme of Subhash's army. Still does that mean chale chalo is not > unique to lagaan. It conveys every possible concept it needs to. The > anger toward british rule, persevierence to beat the opponent, > confronting in together in a team etc etc. It just so happens that > Bose and lagaan had situations very similar and the song could be > replaced. But that wont go into pukaar or swades. =======Rawat======= Sahil, when we are talking about ARR, let's not talk about film situations (which can be altered to suit the replacement of songs) nor lyrics (which can be re-written for new situation). We can talk only about the tune, sounds, feel of the song. if lagaan's chale chalo and bose's kadam-kadam badhaye jaa can be exchanged, that is no big deal because both are period movies and both set in pre-47 era. I am saying even further: - Lagaan's "chale chalo" can be used in Dil Se creating a situation when Shahrukh goes to the jungles to interview terrorist leader, he sees group of terrorists getting trained and singing chale chalo with lyrics altered to suit the situation. - same "chale chalo"" of lagaan can be used in Bombay creating situations during the riots by (a) either rioters singing it, (b) or, the people grouping themselves against the rioters sing it. Again, script and lyrics can be modified, but Bombay or Dil Se are movies set in 1992-1999, and the same pre-1947 song fits. =======Rawat======= ------------------- I just have one thing to say, for the trees you are not able to see the forest. You are nittypicking bcoz you feel even his pre-modern and post-modern era have the same arrangements or the same style. We all know it by a diff name and that is ARRish. Its not the orchestraton or the instruments mind you, it is his genious to be able to understand the situation (and for the last few years era) and come of with tunes What he tries to do as far as I get it, he comes up with his own interpretation of the same (and this is where his research comes, he might listen and find what type of tunes were created, what instruments he used) and while doing it he also leaves his indelible Rahman stamp on it and that is where u seem to have disconnect. You had asked in one of your earlier emails, you would like to know more about his research, then probably u should read his interviews pre and post lagaan as to how he created Lagaan's sound. ------------------ > Oo palanhare and ek tuu hii bharosaa, sure. Context is pretty much the > same. I dont know how much periodness comes into play when one is > worshiping. I guess the period element in palan hare comes from the > lytics e.g "bhakti ko shakdi do". "bhagvaan yeh jeevan, tumhe na > savaro ke.." What I find amazing here is how well the melody fits > those lyrics. So indirectly it does contain period elements doesnt it. =======Rawat======= I personally feel that "ek tuu hii bharosa" of pukar has a more "old" feel than "o palanhaare" of lagaan. I feel that songs should really havc been exchanged in these films. And that again brings me back to the understanding of "period" sounds that ARR has. =======Rawat======= ------------------ Maybe he would have done that if Lagaan was conceptualized before Pukar. Dont u think u r stretching it a little too far by saying that such and such song would have been much better and this other film. That is now how any music dir works I guess. Coming up with tunes where he can procrastinate the type of situations and work he might have and then going ahead and reserving certain of his tunes just for them. ------------------ > Megha song.. no way wont replace anything! > > Mahive Mahive from LOBS.. with some modification could be placed in > other period/non period situations. But not as it is, the tabla beats > in the background are too reminiscent of the olden era. Ofcourse they > probably dont resemble anythign of that time, it just creates that > feeling. =======Rawat======= Exactly. That type of sounds should be used more and more. That are what create the feel. But, there is another aspect of it. Both mahive and Jogiya are very sweet and voices were very fresh. The overall feel of these two songs is same as saathiyaa's "chupke se" and meenaxi's "ra.ng hai". So, there disappears the "period" feel. =======Rawat======= ------------------- See thats exactly the problem I was talking about earlier. The ARR feel. The underlying thread in Mahive and Jogiya and Rang Hai is the Rahmanisque feel. People so used to casting that they exhibit certain restraint when presented with an alternative perspective. Its not people's fault and neither is it Rahman's. I definitely don't wan't Rahman to inhibit his creative self just bcoz he might be able to reach the masses. There are many other music dir's who can do that. I am sure Gowriker, Benegal, Mehta, Aamir come to ARR for a certain reason (inspite of some failures of some of this period films) and I am sure they do it for the exact same reason. Ashutosh did defy a lot of predefined notions in Lagaan. I am sure you would agree that Lagaan didn;t have all the elements of a pre independence movie. But he didn't sacrifice his creativity and went ahead and challegened a lot of set norms (not sure who set them but I guess mass momentum gathered and lived in people's memory for long to become norm). Birds of the same feather flock together and hence the association. ------------------- ------------------- > Yesterday I downloaded mughal-e-azam songs as I hadnt heard them in a > loooong time. Naushad has a great talent, ARR possibly has some > resemblance of naushad's style of composing tunes out of notes. (I > didnt say melody ). After listening to them few times I'm of the view > that, to me, Mughal-e-Azam wont last for more than couple of hearings. > It is just not attractive for this era. Should ARR compose anything of > that (even with modern day reccording technology) it wont last even as > long as what he actually releases. =======Rawat======= ha ha ha. Dear Sahil, Now I have got you, as they say, lock-stock-and-barrel. What you said above is EXACTLY, VERBATIM, DITTO, the same as what was said about those persons who felt disappointed with Rising and Aa Aah in first hearings. So there. What gives? =======Rawat======= ---------------- I have seen you around ever since I joined this group in 2000. I am sure you have seen this disappointment expressed for all his albums (Lagaa, Taal, Zubeeida, Saathiyaa ....). That should not be news to you. ---------------- > Do you tell me Mughal-e-Azam does not have traits of 1960?? ( which is > when it was released I think) I dont know 1960s music well, but that > what it appears to me as initially. =======Rawat======= In one mail, I had listed some dozen films of 1960-63. Anyone knowing of the songs in these films would know how different MEA sounds was from those songs. In another mail, I had listed some dozen songs of these films which just won't fit MEA feel, and MEA wouldn't fit any of these movies. MEA had heavy instruments, loud voices, high bass, low treble. That is what has come to be recognised as the signature of Mughal era. The logic could be that people in those eras were hardly self-aware. They didn't know modern concepts like freedom, self-dependence, self-sufficiency. They were not knowing any of the latest psychological definitions, nor do they know Eric Berne's games people play. I am not saying that people were not honest and sincere. They were more so compared to today's people, but they were not consciously aware of these concepts. They were living these concepts without knowing them. Thus, the interactions among them was spontaneous. They spoke their minds without giving long thoughts of possible misinterpretations, living up to their images, etc. Thus, they used to start singing without any elaborate situations, they spoke louder, the entire feel goes to be loud and heavy instrumentation bringing bass. Which are the "period" songs of ARR in which he had used heavy instrumentations, loud voices, high bass, low trebble. On the contrary, most of the ARR songs are high trebble and low bass. That is the mastery ARR has, and he did use it even in period sounds, without thinking about mental makeup and profiles of people of that era. =======Rawat======= -------------------- That is your interpretation of how it should sound. Maybe also Naushad's the way you have presented it. I am not too sure whether ARR should agree to it. I am sure he would capture these thoughts during his research for Akbar Jodha, comprehend them. ------------------- > "period" feel of these songs. > to me, over the time, the songs get ingrained into the movie. When I > hear lagaan songs it will remind me of scenes from the movie, or give > me some other feel that I had attatched most to that tune, but doesnt > replace with modern day style feel. =======Rawat======= Once we have seen the movie, our appraisal of the music gets affected by the script, visuals. That is why rukhi sukhi roti of naayak, that people had decried so much before the release of the film, was loved so much after people saw its visuals. But, that means Shankar is great, nor ARR. Similarly, if Ashutosh could bring a "old" feel in Lagaan, or Benegal could bring an "old" feel in Zubaidaa or in Bose, it is their mastery. I would say that they did not get much help from ARR. =======Rawat======= ---------------- Confused me again. So you mean to say Benegal was able to get the old feel using Ghoomparani, ekla chalo re and desh ki mitti. Music Dir's, lyricists, Directors, Choreographers, Actors, Actresses none of these personalities are as independent as you might think they are. They are a group of people who come together to create a piece of art. They have interdependence where a certain vision of the director is best rendered at times by the actor, times by the music, at times by the lyricist and sometimes even by the supporting actors. They do share a symbiotic relationship contrary to what some people might think. I think in this Rukhi-Sukhi context Shankar's brilliance was presenting the underlying facet of ARR's music which was missed earlier by a certian sect of people. ---------------- >>If ARR changes those sounds to push some new sounds, >>people might not digest it, and music and film will flop. > > Not. Lagaan songs did not flop. Earth 1947 did not flop (atleast among > the audience I know of) =======Rawat======= Lagaan music became hit just like Dil Se and Bombay and Taal music became hit, in spite of NOT being a period musics. =======Rawat======= ------------------- I think that is strictly your personal opinion (Lagaan not being period music). National awards and scores of other awards speak a different story altogether. ------------------- > How do you know the director is not to be blamed for that? Do you > really think any music director in his right mind would palce a voice > of a little kid for a 30 something old lady? Sounds like > miscommunicaiton of scenario from director to ARR. First I don't think a lullaby in BOSE can give rise to any miscommunication. There were not many females in the movie, and, if ARR was not told, didn't he himself became curious as to who could be the female singing the song on screen. Anyway, only ARR can shed some light on that. >>but he agains comes us with songs like "dhaka lagaa bukaa" >>and "shazaade nikale" which make peole remind of earlier >>days and they switch their minds off from ARR. > > Agree. You're reading my mind too. I am sure that several group members would come up with "these two were excellent songs, and i liked this, I liked that, I liked both" comments. But, a good song/ tune is no excuse for using poor lyrics. And ARR has does it often to use ugly, deplorable lyrics in his several songs. He could have used better lyrics. I don't think anyone else (director/producer) has any say in that. Lyrics are what MD finalises. > How can you say the blame is not on people?? > > I'm sure he understands. The differene is not in musical culture of > AR, i was talking about the audience. Sure some hit tamil film songs > have been a success in the north, and many have not! If the > demographics were the same most albums that were a hit in the south > would be a hit in the north and vice versa, but the deviation is too > large. He can give the audience another taal or dil se or rangeela. > But thats not himi, he doesnt repeat themes. He keeps experimenting > and inventing.. I guess thats his passion. > If people oppose that because they dont understant the depth of his > work then, to me, it clearly is people's fault not the composer. =======Rawat======= history tells that people are willing to love his music. And he has capability to come up with such music again and again. Putting the blame on people is like blaming you for not liking MEA as you said above. If ARR can't come up with DilSe++, Taal++, Rangeelaa++, it is like saying that Dil Se, Taal, Rangeelaa were flukes. I don't think they were. =======Rawat======= ----------------- Finally we have an agreement. Yes they were not flukes and your DilSe++, Taal++ and Rangeela++ will appear. Amen to that. In the meanwhile enjoy his Pukar++, DHDM++ .... ----------------- > Sure if it were a plain business of selling (where the aim is solely > to make more money) then one would want to create the product as > simple as possible so that majority of the users can manage to deal > with it. Thats not the same in this case. Music has spiritual and > emotional aspect to it, it is a creative art not just a business. > > I agree with your theory abotu public not carrying hi-fi systems > necessary to see the real deal behind AR's sounds. But I dont think > that is entirely to blame. Actually, I thought most people in india > had upgraded to somethign reasonable sounding.. but I may be out of > touch. And you tell me the critics who write these reviews dont have > hi-fi systems either??? In your last mail, you had written "I stopped listening to critics long time ago". I think we should leave it upto that. Critics are professional and they have to earn a living by writing reviews. That must be affecting what they write. But, as everyone agrees that ARR's music grows on listeners, doesn't that itself say that any review published within hours of music getting released is premature as the music could not have grown on the critic. :) Read only those reviews which are published after at least a fortnight of release of ARR's new music. > Actualyl there are ample people who do have > appropriate means to listen to his sounds yet dont end up > understanding to its depth. There are people like that in india and > there are indian people like that outside of india. > > I dont think AR shoudl compromise his style, his genius, and his > passion to suit the bulk of the crowd. not "compormise", but "improve". He should take a notice of the feedback and incorporate at least some which he himself finds genuine suggestions. ARR is in commercial world. He has to take into account the flow of the market. > He has been a musical > revolutionary since Roja, and he should stay that way. On some > occaison it ends up being attractive on the surface too, and people > cheer that. His those music that were attractive on surface "too", were not a compromise on contents. That is what I am saying. He should mandatorily make his music have enough attractiveness of surface "too". > No one can please everyone! Not even God! God doesn't need Roti, Kapda, Makaan. ARR does. Hence ARR should not present God's way of living as an excuse. :) > If he chose to adopt a style that pelases one crowd, he would lose out > on another. Which crowd was displeased with Taal? > It is best that he stick to what is natural to him, to me > thats where his brilliance lies. > He does not need to please the bulk of the crowd to be called a > genius. You are unnecessarily mixing "popularity" with "compromise". ARR had been popular without compromising. > The blame is on the people. Let ARR say that "The blame is on the people." Thanks for the reply and wonderful thoughts. > Thanks for the reply and wonderful thoughts. > -- > Rawat As a parting note, FYI MEA didn't even an award during its time. Its was hailed as a masterpiece during its later years. I am sure the same would happen to a lot of ARR scores. Thanks for your time. Surya This August, Discover the Birth of Your Independence and The Magic of A.R.Rahman's Music in Mangal Pandey - The Rising http://www.risingthefilm.com http://www.mangalpandeythefilm.com Music released: Jul 14, 2005 Movie releases: Aug 12, 2005 Explore, Experience, Enjoy A.R.Rahman - The Man, The Music, The Magic. Only at arrahmanfans - The definitive A.R.Rahman e-community. Homepage: http://www.arrahmanfans.com Admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arrahmanfans/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
