On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 3:32 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> > On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: > >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > >> > >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak > >> removed. > > [snip] > > > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they if > > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, > > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real > > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" makes > > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). > > > > Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se based on > "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of > evaluating our community standards continuously but generally > respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an > isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single > unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a reasonable > accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently-standing > practices. > > That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond any > historical points or future changes. > > -G. > > I personally support spivak - any change to referring to players always by the singular 'they' would probably offend me - I'm not a they, I'm a she. E/em pronouns, as something that are generally confined within the game, don't annoy me in the same way that 'they' would and I enjoy our odd little game pronouns. That said, Agora Is A Nomic and people are free to advocate changing to the use of preferred pronouns if they like - this doesn't bother me particularly much when Madrid does it. I too find them odd to adapt to (and get them wrong quite often), and blognomic did start with spivak then abolish them many years ago. And yes, I do think traditions ought to be questioned - a substantial majority of the player base is newer and if they choose to revise something that doesn't work for them, they should do so. What bothers me rather more is Madrid's attitude to trans people and women expressed on discord, which I think is quite consistently discriminatory. E has also made remarks about racial differences (deleted by moderator) which in my view were discriminatory. To be clear, I don't remotely feel emotionally threatened by Madrid, nor do I feel like e personally discriminates against or devalues other players including myself - which is why I don't want to ban em. E is, perhaps unfortunately, quite good at confining these conversations to the abstract. But I do want to make it clear that I think women ought not be needlessly sexualised, trans people should be accomodated, and ideologies that approach 'race-realism' are pernicious and entirely beyond the pale. These are sentences that I wouldn't think I would have to type to the agora nomic email server of all places, but I want to make what I think clear. I think it would be quite appropriate for agora as a whole to affirm in the rules that we are a diverse place and will always welcome anyone from any minority group. This is the sort of social norm I believe it would be appropriate to crystallise and enshrine for all time.
